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Topic:
The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
9/28/07 1:14pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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Armenian_Jedi posted:
They're not. They're the descendants of those people. Because all the people that were involved in the Armenian Genocide would be dead because of how long ago it happened.
Armenian_Jedi posted:
In 1895 they killed 300,000 Armenians for no reason what so ever. I assume you think that was a failed relocation attempt?
Soo... after I said that I debated someone on this that was denying it, how's that become me denying it?
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Armenian_Jedi
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
9/28/07 2:41pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
They're not. They're the descendants of those people. Because all the people that were involved in the Armenian Genocide would be dead because of how long ago it happened.
when I say "the same people" I don't mean the EXACT same people who issued the orders, I mean their descendants... to me, and most sane people, that is "the same people"
people as in countrymen, kinfolk, children, children of children, ethnicity, nationality... get it?
Soo... after I said that I debated someone on this that was denying it, how's that become me denying it?
my bad, I read that part of your post incorrectly...
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
9/28/07 6:04pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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Armenian_Jedi posted:
Lowbacca_1977 posted:
They're not. They're the descendants of those people. Because all the people that were involved in the Armenian Genocide would be dead because of how long ago it happened.
when I say "the same people" I don't mean the EXACT same people who issued the orders, I mean their descendants... to me, and most sane people, that is "the same people"
people as in countrymen, kinfolk, children, children of children, ethnicity, nationality... get it?
I get it, my point is that its improper, I think, to try to say they're the same people that committed the genocide. That they're ancestory is tied to it is certainly significant in why they deny it, though.
Armenian_Jedi posted:
Soo... after I said that I debated someone on this that was denying it, how's that become me denying it?
my bad, I read that part of your post incorrectly...
S'ok. Everyone misreads stuff eventually.
Now though, to spice this up.... Ender, in other threads, has talked alot about genocide needing specific intent to wipe out a group of people. I've been trying to find it, but what was the policy itself that catagorises the Armenian Genocide as a genocide?
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Armenian_Jedi
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
9/28/07 6:27pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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I get it, my point is that its improper, I think, to try to say they're the same people that committed the genocide. That they're ancestory is tied to it is certainly significant in why they deny it, though.
No one's saying the present day Turks had anything to do with it though. But it was still Turkish people. And all we want is them to acknowledge the mistakes of their ancestors. is that really so much to ask?
Now though, to spice this up.... Ender, in other threads, has talked alot about genocide needing specific intent to wipe out a group of people. I've been trying to find it, but what was the policy itself that catagorises the Armenian Genocide as a genocide?
I suppose you're looking for an answer more sophisticated then, "because we were different."
well here's a brief explanation: Summary of events leading up to the Armenian Genocide
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
9/28/07 6:49pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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Armenian_Jedi posted:
No one's saying the present day Turks had anything to do with it though. But it was still Turkish people. And all we want is them to acknowledge the mistakes of their ancestors. is that really so much to ask?
Never said that they shouldn't admit what happened, just that its also possible that many Turks' ancestors are not responsible for it. What I was opposing more was saying that because, at this point of time, some portion of a group did something, that the blame can be put upon that whole group a few generations later to seem to say "every turk killed armenians, or aided killing armenians". Further, current Turks are responsible only for the decisions they personally choose to make.
Armenian_Jedi posted:
Now though, to spice this up.... Ender, in other threads, has talked alot about genocide needing specific intent to wipe out a group of people. I've been trying to find it, but what was the policy itself that catagorises the Armenian Genocide as a genocide?
I suppose you're looking for an answer more sophisticated then, "because we were different."
well here's a brief explanation: Summary of events leading up to the Armenian Genocide
More what I'm after is how it fits to this style of definition:
wikipedia posted:
any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
D and E don't seem to apply in any form... so its more how A, B, or C would apply to specific policies. So things that may have simply been allowed to happen wouldn't neccessarily count. E.G. from your source saying, "The death marches led across Anatolia, and the purpose was clear. The Armenians were raped, starved, dehydrated, murdered, and kidnapped along the way. The Turkish Gendarmes either led these atrocities or turned a blind eye." has that the deaths along the way were atrocities that were allowed to happen, but not neccessarily a policy with the intent to destroy Armenians, and relocation itself isn't genocide.
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Armenian_Jedi
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
9/28/07 8:03pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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Never said that they shouldn't admit what happened, just that its also possible that many Turks' ancestors are not responsible for it. What I was opposing more was saying that because, at this point of time, some portion of a group did something, that the blame can be put upon that whole group a few generations later to seem to say "every turk killed armenians, or aided killing armenians". Further, current Turks are responsible only for the decisions they personally choose to make.
Your making a point to someone else, because none of that is a response to anything I've said. I never said every turk killed armenians or aided in killing armenians. You're just making things up now.
D and E don't seem to apply in any form... so its more how A, B, or C would apply to specific policies. So things that may have simply been allowed to happen wouldn't neccessarily count. E.G. from your source saying, "The death marches led across Anatolia, and the purpose was clear. The Armenians were raped, starved, dehydrated, murdered, and kidnapped along the way. The Turkish Gendarmes either led these atrocities or turned a blind eye." has that the deaths along the way were atrocities that were allowed to happen, but not neccessarily a policy with the intent to destroy Armenians, and relocation itself isn't genocide.
You're not reading everything. First our leaders and intellectuals were killed. Then our weapons were taken away from us. Then our men were killed. Only THEN were our women, children and elderly marched out to die. They weren't being relocated, they were being sent out to their deaths. They weren't relocating them to any specific place, in a lot of cases they had them walking in circles in the desert.
The only time there was any destination is when they got sent to camps where they were killed anyway.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
9/28/07 8:52pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
- Date Edited:
9/28/07 8:54pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lowbacca_1977
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I'm trying to pick up why I was drawing a distinction between differences in people. The Armenian genocide was not done by the same people, or group of people, or whatnot, that are currently referred to by Turks simply because of the passage of time.
Armenian_Jedi posted:
You're not reading everything. First our leaders and intellectuals were killed. Then our weapons were taken away from us. Then our men were killed. Only THEN were our women, children and elderly marched out to die. They weren't being relocated, they were being sent out to their deaths. They weren't relocating them to any specific place, in a lot of cases they had them walking in circles in the desert.
The only time there was any destination is when they got sent to camps where they were killed anyway.
Its where it exists within the definition. Such as the weapons not mattering. Also trying to figure things out as the leaders and intellectuals part you mention is listed via wikipedia as imprisonment, not execution. "On the night of 24 April 1915, the Ottoman government rounded up and imprisoned an estimated 250 Armenian intellectuals."
Its in trying to see what specific policy the Ottoman Empire enacted with the intent to destroy the population.
Basically, not that people were killed, or that it was an atrocity, but specifically what was done to make it clear that the acts were carried out with intent to destroy. Basically, looking for where the smoking gun is for that portion of it.
A lot of what I'd looked at talks about relocations and deportations, but comparitively little as to how the death toll was reached, what amount was disease, mob violence, military action, etc.
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Armenian_Jedi
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
9/28/07 11:57pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
I'm trying to pick up why I was drawing a distinction between differences in people. The Armenian genocide was not done by the same people, or group of people, or whatnot, that are currently referred to by Turks simply because of the passage of time.
Armenian_Jedi posted:
You're not reading everything. First our leaders and intellectuals were killed. Then our weapons were taken away from us. Then our men were killed. Only THEN were our women, children and elderly marched out to die. They weren't being relocated, they were being sent out to their deaths. They weren't relocating them to any specific place, in a lot of cases they had them walking in circles in the desert.
The only time there was any destination is when they got sent to camps where they were killed anyway.
Its where it exists within the definition. Such as the weapons not mattering. Also trying to figure things out as the leaders and intellectuals part you mention is listed via wikipedia as imprisonment, not execution. "On the night of 24 April 1915, the Ottoman government rounded up and imprisoned an estimated 250 Armenian intellectuals."
Its in trying to see what specific policy the Ottoman Empire enacted with the intent to destroy the population.
Basically, not that people were killed, or that it was an atrocity, but specifically what was done to make it clear that the acts were carried out with intent to destroy. Basically, looking for where the smoking gun is for that portion of it.
A lot of what I'd looked at talks about relocations and deportations, but comparitively little as to how the death toll was reached, what amount was disease, mob violence, military action, etc.
it wasn't imprisonment... it was an execution.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
9/29/07 12:07am
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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I'm asking this in the sense that I can have a specific source to show someone and say, "see, they created this policy here, and it meets this part of the definition of genocide"
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Armenian_Jedi
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
9/29/07 12:00pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
This is from the wikipedia article you mentioned. It says in order for it to be genocide it has to include any of those... so at least 1.
so let's see.
(a) Killing members of the group; 1.5 million Armenians dead. I'm assuming this falls under this.
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; I don't even know why this is in there... killing people usually involves serious bodily harm...
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; marching them out in the desert until they died obviously qualifies for this one.
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; When they didn't kill the Armenians, they were placed in camps where the women and men were kept separate. They died anyway, so children weren't being born.
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. This obviously happened during the so called "relocation attempts"...most of the children were killed, but some, like my grandfather, were sent to Turkish cities and the Turks tried to make the Armenian children Turkish. It didn't work, but my grandfather did speak Turkish and only Turkish until the day he died.
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Dark Lady Mara
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
9/30/07 11:49pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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I agree with Varouj. Forced relocation very definitely falls under the auspices of c and d there. It causes bodily harm and often death to frail individuals and it interferes with the survival of the culture of a people to remove them from land they've had settled for many generations. Some human rights scholars would put forced migration in a list like wikipedia's of acts that automatically should be regarded as genocide. I suppose whether that's a willful attempt to wipe out the population or merely an accidental consequence of a government's land greed is open for debate, but the sheer numbers killed make me inclined to say it had to be intentional.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
10/1/07 12:04am
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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Unfortunitly, in the arguement I was in, thats exactly what it came down to... if it was simply a biproduct, or if it was the intent.
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Dark Lady Mara
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
10/1/07 2:36pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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I'd say when over a million die, it gets hard to argue that the government didn't know what was happening and still had the purest of intents. That's why I mentioned the numbers, because although a human rights violation should probably be considered a human rights violation independently of the number of people involved, most people take the death toll into account when figuring the severity of the act. It's hard to "accidentally" kill three-quarters of the people you're supposedly peaceably deporting, especially when it occurs over the course of some years.
There's an emotional factor in this stuff, too, and people tend to be most bothered when the final death tolls are very high (the Holocaust), or when the killing occurs at an exceptional rate (Rwanda, 1994). So numbers always matter.
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DarthArsenal6
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
10/4/07 5:07am
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
- Date Edited:
10/4/07 5:37am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
DarthArsenal6
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Ender_Sai posted:
peregrine, it's not the Armenian Massacres - it's the Armenian Genocide. The Turkish state embarked on a deliberate programme of systematic extermination of the Armenian people. That's Genocide. It's no mere massacre - it's the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a racial or ethnic group. You need to accept the state in Turkey tried to commit an act of ultimately injustice, rather than a mere stain on your history.
E_S
Ender_Sai just clarify precisely for the benefit for others and me
What is the difference between Genocide, Massacres and Holocaust ?
THere is a lot of issue surrounding it, depending how people take it
I'm worried that this could go over board and have some people asociating
mass murder with Muslim as Turkey is seen as a Muslim state, by some.
However the Armenian Holocaust should not be forgotton - regardless. It is true that their Genocide is not well known like many other Genocides that had taken place in the 20th century.
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Rogue_Ten
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
10/4/07 8:54am
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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Genocide: It's no mere massacre - it's the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a racial or ethnic group.
There's your answer right there in his post. Furthermore, Genocide is defined by international law. "Massacre" is just a term.
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