Jedi Council Forums - Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever.

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Author	Topic: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever.
Darth_Destructo Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/16/04 12:01am Subject: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever.
	Background: I'm not an American, I am from South East Asia, but I am currently a student in America and have realised the rights, responsibilities and priviledges that come with Freedom of Expression. At first, I was hyper-sensitive to 'minority supression' issues but having done some research on the First Amendment and Freedom of Expression, I have developed an insight of my own. I was not born with a Constitution, or a Bill or Rights, and I really appreciate the one that I live under now. I What I am basically trying to express is my own personal belief (and humble opinion) that Freedom of Expression, has, and continues to be the defining principle of this great country. Even the most 'negative' or 'hateful' expression has a place in this society and it is up to the individual, nay-it is the right of the individual, to be able to decide whether to follow, to ignore or to protest. In his essay, “Protecting Freedom of Expression at Harvard,” Derek Bok argues that expression cannot be unlawful by virtue of its (negative) nature or that it offend, rather, the undesirable issue should be disregarded, to prevent repetition, and the culprits encultured through education and counseling. My stance is that Freedom of Expression on shouldn’t have to be suppressed in favor of popular opinion. I.e. People should be able to say anything that they want to without having to worry about (legal) repercussions. - Freedom of Expression is necessary for the free-flow of ideas, information and knowledge. - Opinions, perspectives and points of view of individuals are virtually limitless and thus, no authority, or government can truly decide what is deemed suitable or unsuitable for society; censorship is unconstitutional Some might say that Hate Speech by representatives of the Ku Klux Klan and the Nazi parties, et al, are unethical and harmful to the fabric of society, especially the young, and that antithetical beliefs threaten the values of the freedom of the First Amendment for others. In the long-term interest of preserving the First Amendment’s Freedom of Speech, people should have the right to form their own ‘value judgments’ in the face of such knowledge and not let the government, or the popular majority, decide what is deemed appropriate or not. Besides, threatening or intimidating conduct is never constitutionally protected, so there are limits. The First Amendment, guarantees Freedom of Speech, of press, of association, of assembly and petition (Freedom of Expression collectively) , to disregard these rights is to make the First Amendment obsolete. As always, this is meant to be a discussion so please feel free to share your thoughts and ideas. I admit freely that I have only been here a year and that this is an 'outsider's' observation if you will. Please bear in mind that as ironic as it may be, this thread is governed by the rules and regulations of this forum and website, so please abide by those guidelines when freely expressing your opinions. Thank you for your time and have a nice day, E. -----signature----- Lazy Quote System ©2002 Darth_Destructo a. "Indeed." b. "Great post! I almost understood it!" c. "Hmm... leather..." d. "Damn my typos!" <(._.)> Yoda will save us all. <('_')>
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darth_paul Registered: Apr '00	Date Posted: 5/16/04 12:10am Subject: RE: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever.
	Well said. I agree wholeheartedly. -Paul -----signature----- So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.
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Pelranius Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 5/16/04 12:42am Subject: RE: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever.
	Very well stated. Freedom of speech is the conscientious water of life. -----signature----- Fleet Junkie and Proud! Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU) And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
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Ender_Sai Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 5/16/04 12:54am Subject: RE: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever.
	But could you say, to present a counterpoint, that the promotion of ideas of hate are so counter-productive to the fabric of society that their censorship is almost necessary? I mean, let's assume for a second, that we're all utilitarians - that is, we believe in the greatest good for the greatest number - is it therefore fair to say the most extreme examples - tracts calling for jihad against America, Mein Kampff - should be banned? I think your post is excellent, Darth_Destructo, but I felt it necessary to throw in some counterpoints... E_S -----signature----- In this truth he knew himself to be. From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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aTOmic_pUnk Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 5/16/04 1:16am Subject: RE: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever.
	there are too many stupid people who are allowed to speak. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom to pollute society with the vocalization of your ignorance. Some people just need to be told to sit down, STFU, and eat your pancakes. I believe I have a valid point. Discuss... -----signature----- You can't take the heat in Hell's Kitchen http://brawl-hall.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=22 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I once saw the face of Han Solo in a fondu. It changed my life.
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farraday Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 5/16/04 1:43am Subject: RE: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever. - Date Edited: 5/16/04 1:55am (1 edits total) Edited By: farraday
	I would point out some people prefer, even(dare I say?) demand, waffles. Moving on. There is an unfortunate balance that has to be made given the vagueness of the term expression. Certainly anyone attempting to take a scholarly approach to the issue of racial differences should...must... be able to voice those expression and in turn be rebutted. However just as shouting fire in a crowded theatre must be considered to far, what can you say about the man on the podium screaming to a crowd of mind dulled skinheads they must end the threat of the negros and their jewish masters? Does he not bear any responsibility if those youths decide to do so with a few brutal muders? Morally there can be no doubt he is as guilty as if he had held the victims down, but legally? Freedom of Expression is a wonderful thing, something those of us who are born imbibing it from the teat don't fully understand, but at when does lunacy become to heavy a burden to justify under freedom of expression? Sicne I'm going to bed I'll answer my own question instea dof letting one of you stumble upon the setup, or even worse steal my closing cribbed diatribe. There can be no clear line in the sand, instead leaving us with an always shifting mark. To far one way the the claws of censorship smother, to far the other and tolerance becomes timid frailty. The price of liberty is being free. -----signature----- Not photoshopped, digitally enhanced or altered.
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_Darth_Brooks_ Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 5/16/04 3:11am Subject: RE: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever.
	"Cribbed?" Wuz'at? Freedom engenders responsibility and restraint as opposed to anarchy. "Your blows end where my nose begins." But does it? The other day: It's the middle of the day and I'm stuck in traffic during a redlight next to a brother playing offensive rap lyrics with a window rattling base cranked up so high my ear drums are literally hurting. I mean, really hurting. My windows are up, my a/c going and my car stereo playing, all of which have been drowned out. I'm feeling self-concious about putting my hands over my aching ears. Internally I'm trying to think in terms of 'WWJD'(What Would Jesus Do?) but the human urge is more along the impulse 'WWCMD?'(What Would Charlie Manson Do?) The other driver is immersed in the decibels of his own "freedom of self-expression." Not only is it loud and intrusive, it's offensive. Was it freedom or a self-expressive irresponsible social anarchy? -----signature----- "I once wanted to become an atheist but I gave up . . . they have no holidays. " I AM AN ACT OF GOD. If you doubt it ask my insurance agent. Whom the Mod's would destroy they first drive mad.
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Branthoris Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 5/16/04 3:32am Subject: RE: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever. - Date Edited: 5/16/04 3:34am (2 edits total) Edited By: Branthoris
	Freedom of expression is indeed a very important right, one of the cornerstones of a free society. However, it is not absolute, and there are situations in which it can and should be suppressed. The regulation of pure expression--speech and written matter--must always be carefully scrutinised. In the United States, it is permissible only if "narrowly tailored to suit a compelling state interest", which allows for the regulation of slander, libel, and incitement, but not much else. Other countries impose more regulation; in Britain, for example, it is illegal to commit "incitement to racial hatred", or to disclose information about the identity or whereabouts of certain notorious criminals (to whom the courts have granted protective injunctions). It is also illegal, as criminal contempt, to publish information likely to prejudice a trial, or to reveal the identities of jurors in a case. The regulation of partly expressive conduct is, in the US, permissible if it serves an important governmental purpose that is not related to suppressing free expression. It is for this reason that a state cannot criminalise burning the flag (see Texas v. Johnson): preserving the flag as a symbol of national unity is an interest related to suppressing free expression. Similarly, "fighting words"--such as falsely shouting 'fire' in a theater--are outside the protection of free speech so long as they are not regulated because of the ideas they contain. Thus, the Supreme Court stated in RAV v. St Paul that "the government may proscribe libel; but it may not make the further content discrimination of proscribing only libel critical of the government". In that case, the Court considered the following ordinance: "Whoever places on public or private property a symbol, object, appellation, characterization or graffiti, including, but not limited to, a burning cross or Nazi swastika, which one knows or has reasonable grounds to know arouses anger, alarm or resentment in others on the basis of race, color, creed, religion or gender commits disorderly conduct and shall be guilty of a misdemeanor." The ordinance was invalidated because of the words "on the basis of race, color, creed, religion or gender". In Justice Scalia's words, you "could hold up a sign saying, for example, that all 'anti-Catholic bigots' are misbegotten; but not that all 'papists' are, for that would insult and provoke violence 'on the basis of religion.' St. Paul has no such authority to license one side of a debate to fight freestyle, while requiring the other to follow Marquis of Queensberry rules." The basic principle is this: in a free society, government cannot be allowed to regulate the expression of ideas. However, there are important interests other than being an ideas-police that can justify regulating expression.
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DarthArsenal6 Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/16/04 6:16am Subject: RE: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever.
	Is making Racist comments or saying abusive words to a person, a freedon of speech ? -----signature----- \|-o-\| {OO} <-o-> /-o-\ <=o=> "You mean you'll put down your rock, and I'll put down my sword and we'll try and kill each other like civilized people?" A,B XY DA6 calender goes from March 31st to April 2nd, no one fools DarthArsenal6.
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welikefeet3 Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 5/16/04 8:08am Subject: RE: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever.
	Yes, finally, I've been agruing this for so long but yet I am still banned for some of the things I say on here...the fan films mods are extremly despotic and repressive about this right, banning me numerous times for my opinion....
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Darth_Destructo Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/16/04 8:48am Subject: RE: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever.
	As Branthoris (nice avatar, btw ) pointed out and I touched on earlier, some (potentially) harmful expressions are not protected by the First Amendment. This is not to infringe on the rights of anyone but to protect the safety and harmony of society. I believe that it was John Stuat Mills who theorized that in a democracy, people could say anything they wanted, do anything they wanted and organize themselves into whatever clubs or organizations that they wanted, as long as they (physically) harmed no innocent person. In other words, do whatever you like, as long as it harms no ome else. "Fighting Words", which may lead to violence is unlawful, falls under this distinction. The point, imho, is not to censore or ban expression, rather, to educate and councel hateful people. It may sound silly to say that Nazis can say whatever they like and protest however they like, as long as they attend a 'racial tolerence' class, but would supressing their expression be a better bet to curb potential violence? We all know that all to often, people do what they do just because they are not supposed to. :P As mentioned earlier to and touched on by farrady, and others, there can be no real line drawn between what is considered appropriate for public intellectual consumption and what is considered harmful to public comsumption. Would you rather have the choice to listen and decide for yourself, or would you rather have the government, or some other organization, decide for you? Who should decide these things anyway? The P.T.A.? Short of a Church ruling, which whose religious grounds you have decided to base your desicions, these really shouldn't be any 'Big Brother' telling you what you can or cannot listen to or observe. (But remember, there is a divide between Church and State anyway... ) Thank you for your time and have a nice day, E. -----signature----- Lazy Quote System ©2002 Darth_Destructo a. "Indeed." b. "Great post! I almost understood it!" c. "Hmm... leather..." d. "Damn my typos!" <(._.)> Yoda will save us all. <('_')>
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doggans Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 5/16/04 8:50am Subject: RE: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever.
	banning me numerous times for my opinion.... They don't ban you for your opinion, they ban you for your spam. -----signature----- http://doggans87.livejournal.com http://twitter.com/doggans http://www.facebook.com/doggans What more do you need to know?
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DarthArsenal6 Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/16/04 9:22am Subject: RE: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever.
	it was a rhetorical(spelt correctly ? ) question but any way Thats true but there are some people that don't get it ! -----signature----- \|-o-\| {OO} <-o-> /-o-\ <=o=> "You mean you'll put down your rock, and I'll put down my sword and we'll try and kill each other like civilized people?" A,B XY DA6 calender goes from March 31st to April 2nd, no one fools DarthArsenal6.
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Master_Fwiffo Registered: May '01	Date Posted: 5/16/04 9:29am Subject: RE: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever.
	Two random thoughts to throw out to the crowd for discussion. 1) Hypotheticaly, if I tell you your ideas are offensive and I want you to shut up, is that a supression of your freedom of speech? (note to people who get angry to fast: This is just hypothetical) 2) Say, I beleive that Ted Kennedy (hes a safe target, right? ) clubs baby seals. If I make a commercial showing doctored photos of Ted Kennedy clubbing baby seals, is that within my rights? Just some fun =-) -----signature----- ------------- Just remember this one constant: Bonecrusher Hates You
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KnightWriter Title: Administrator Emeritus Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 5/16/04 9:35am Subject: RE: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever.
	the fan films mods are extremly despotic and repressive about this right, banning me numerous times for my opinion.... There's no right to speech or expression on the JC. This is a private forum, not subject to government laws. -----signature----- Opposing Scrooge Economics since 2009
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Mauler_z Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 5/16/04 12:32pm Subject: RE: Freedom of Expression should never be supressed. Ever.
	Oh shut up KnightWriter, you're suck a suck up you kiss ***. I don't care if these are private boards, as the man who started this thread said, freedome of expression should never be supressed and that is exactly what the MODs purposes are essentially: to repress peoples expressions that they find disagreeable. Well what if others don't? What if other's beleive it is a fine way to express yourself. But that won't matter, because the MODs will ban you. I have actually tried to make discussion on some boards here before but I have been banned for the way I express my views, often without little evidence presented as to why I was banned. I find these practices to be un-American franky and are violating the very principle for which this nation is founded upon. So now I will state openly that I think the MODs should be abolished and free speech be allowed on these boards. -----signature----- To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society. -Theodore Roosevelt
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