Jedi Council Forums - The State of Prisons in U.S.

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Author	Topic: The State of Prisons in U.S.
Vezner Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 6/2/04 11:36am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S. - Date Edited: 6/2/04 11:36am (1 edits total) Edited By: Vezner
	It's different when a prisoner raped or murdered someone. -----signature----- Say NO to socialism Say NO to more government control of your life Say NO to runaway government spending http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MQ2pk7kkm4&feature=player_profilepage Vote NO to Obama in 2012 and NO to his congressional lackies in 2010
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Special_Fred Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 6/2/04 11:40am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	Brutal prison system? Raw animal vengeance? I'm not Texas_Cowboy...I simply believe that if you're imprisoned, you should be required to do hard work (read: work, not laundry) in order to pay for own room and board AND to pay back the victims of your crimes. No cruel and unusual punishment, and no hanging from trees. Just work. -----signature----- People shouldn't be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people. Vote Libertarian, or don't vote at all.
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dizfactor Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/2/04 11:51am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	I simply believe that if you're imprisoned, you should be required to do hard work (read: work, not laundry) in order to pay for own room and board AND to pay back the victims of your crimes. No cruel and unusual punishment, and no hanging from trees. Just work. OK, let's say we do that (and a lot of places are moving in that direction). considering that most people in prison are poor and under-educated, that the prison population is disproportionately composed of minorities, and that all these things are part of a really nasty socioeconomic cycle from which there is no real escape, you're essentially talking about taking a system which systematically criminalizes minorities and punishes them disproportionately while at the same time locking them into a cycle of poor education leading to poverty leading to poor education... etc, and then adding a system of unpaid labor into it. why not just cut out the middleman, save the taxpayers a lot of time and money, and just have buses roll up in the ghetto and enslave, say, every fourth minority male in his teens or twenties? it would basically be the same thing as what you're proposing. -----signature----- "Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century." Julian Dibbell "You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat." Gryph
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Vezner Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 6/2/04 11:56am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S. - Date Edited: 6/2/04 11:59am (1 edits total) Edited By: Vezner
	dizfactor, are you serious? I'm mean REALLY serious? Because my first reaction is to laugh as hard as I can but you actually seem to be serious. How exactly do you think it is best to punish/discourage further illegal behavior of a criminal? Wag your finger at him and say "tsk, tsk"? -----signature----- Say NO to socialism Say NO to more government control of your life Say NO to runaway government spending http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MQ2pk7kkm4&feature=player_profilepage Vote NO to Obama in 2012 and NO to his congressional lackies in 2010
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KnightWriter Title: Administrator Emeritus Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 6/2/04 12:05pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	He's merely pointing out undeniable facts about the demographics of the prison system. Minorities do make up a disproportionate amount of inmates. They cannot afford the same level of defense that others can, and they tend to be poorer on average. All these things and more lead to prison. -----signature----- Opposing Scrooge Economics since 2009
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dizfactor Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/2/04 12:05pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	How exactly do you think it is best to punish/discourage further illegal behavior of a criminal? Wag your finger at him and say "tsk, tsk"? the problem is that you're focusing on the behavior of the individual criminal, which is largely irrelevant. you want lower crime rates, develop a better educational system and a more equitable economic policy instead of trying to think of more severe deterrents. deterrance on the individual level simply doesn't work, because crime is a systemic issue, not an issue of individual psychology or aberrant behavior. it doesn't matter what you do or don't do to punish the individual criminal at all (though what you do to rehabilitate them is marginally more important) if you don't address the roots of crime. crime is caused by bad policy, not bad people. -----signature----- "Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century." Julian Dibbell "You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat." Gryph
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Mr44 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/2/04 12:17pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	develop a better educational system and a more equitable economic policy This was discussed in a prior thread, and I believe it was revealed to be as subjective as everything else in a society. What makes a "better" educational system? We could force everyone to take 4 years of quantom mathematics, but that doesn't mean everyone will get to be a theoretical physicist at NASA. The same things occurs with concepts like "equitable." Does equitable mean that everyone is limited to a Trabant, so no one will be tempted to steal their neighbor's BMW? Or does "equitable" mean developing a system of compensation based on everyone's percieved notion of inequality? -----signature----- When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise He has started to think and is therefore dangerous... -- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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MaceWinducannotdie Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 6/2/04 1:18pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	It's different when a prisoner raped or murdered someone. OK then. Doesn't it bother you that Luke doesn't execute the defenseless Vader at the end of Jedi? This is largely off topic, I know, but I always thought mercy was kind of a big part of Star Wars. Just me, I guess... Never mind, consider it dropped. -----signature----- Talk is cheap and you're causing massive deflation.
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Vezner Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 6/2/04 1:29pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	I know that we're not supposed to talk Star Wars, but here it goes anyway. If Vader had lived but was still "brought back to the light side", would the population of the Galaxy have executed him for his crimes? I think they would have, especially if you believe that the EU is canon. But that is just my opinion and there is no way to prove anything. As you say, dropped. -----signature----- Say NO to socialism Say NO to more government control of your life Say NO to runaway government spending http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MQ2pk7kkm4&feature=player_profilepage Vote NO to Obama in 2012 and NO to his congressional lackies in 2010
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anakin_girl Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR Charlotte , NC Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/2/04 2:31pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	No, things don't need to be that nice, but I don't see what the big deal is if there's air conditioning. If you don't think that's a big deal, then maybe the taxpayers should pay for all people to have air conditioned homes. Certainly if prisoners deserve air-conditioning on the taxpayers' dollar, then all of us do. I have air conditioning, but I work full time and pay for it. Prison is about prevention, not anyone's little Punisher fantasies. It's not working very well--see the repeat offender statistics. As for cable and internet, I don't care if there's limited use. Then the government should make sure that each citizen receives free cable and Internet. In closing, I think it's pretty loony to think a brutal prison system accomplishes anything except this raw animal vengeance that I'm frankly shocked to see so much of in Star Wars fans. I mean, do you folks just watch to see Vader choke, torture, and carbon-freeze prisoners? I like Vader. But the difference is, his prisoners were innocent. I think a better comparison would be Anakin killing the Tuskens who tortured his mother to death--and believe me, I was yelling "Go Ani! Go Ani!" during that scene. That scene also made me think of our prison system. If some thugs did that to my mother, I would want to do the same thing Anakin did--but I wouldn't be allowed to get away with it. Instead, I'd have to stand by and watch while some snot-nosed lawyer defends the thugs, gets them off on a reduced sentence, and sends them to spend the reduced sentence in the comfort of air conditioning, with 100 channels and the Internet at their fingertips. And yes, I have seen the inside of a prison. I know what they look like. How do you think I know that it was "cruel and unusual punishment" for the prisoners in my home county to have to watch TV from the other side of the bars? My father interviewed the sheriff while touring the new jail. dizfactor: "Every fourth minority male" isn't guilty. I agree with you to a point, but the way to fix the problem you're presenting is not to make prisons comfortable for the prisoners--it's to fix the corruption in the justice system, get rid of the Johnny Cochranes, so that people with fatter wallets don't get off so easily. -----signature----- "A person should not believe in an -ism, a person should believe in himself." Ferris Bueller
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MaceWinducannotdie Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 6/2/04 3:19pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S. - Date Edited: 6/2/04 4:09pm (2 edits total) Edited By: MaceWinducannotdie
	But the difference is, his prisoners were innocent. I think a better comparison would be Anakin killing the Tuskens who tortured his mother to death--and believe me, I was yelling "Go Ani! Go Ani!" during that scene. "And the children." Innocent along with the guilty. Same under any justice system because it's impossible to totally separate the two. Naive to think otherwise. And like I said, they do work around those prisons and I don't think they get paid. Certainly nothing approaching minimum wage I'd think. Bet that's enough for some internet and cable. As for the price of room and board, get over it. That's the price society pays for locking up those it deems dangerous. -----signature----- Talk is cheap and you're causing massive deflation.
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anakin_girl Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR Charlotte , NC Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/2/04 7:20pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S. - Date Edited: 6/2/04 7:21pm (1 edits total) Edited By: anakin_girl
	As for the price of room and board, get over it. That's the price society pays for locking up those it deems dangerous. You're kidding, I hope. You would prefer that dangerous people roam the street? Why the hell should I have to pay for someone else's room and board simply because the jack*** decided to commit murder? I have to pay my own room and board and I'm not a murderer! That's what I'll do--I'll commit murder. It's a good way to get free rent, free food, and free medical care. The price we have to pay? As if we're doing something wrong by locking up the poor, poor criminals? Bet that's enough for some internet and cable. As I said, if you are enough of a **hole to commit murder, I'm not interested in paying for your Internet and cable. So I don't feel like being sweet and generous to the Osama Bin Ladens of the world. Shoot me. "And the children."* -----signature----- "A person should not believe in an -ism, a person should believe in himself." Ferris Bueller
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Crix-Madine Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 6/2/04 8:47pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	Actually the inmates do quite a bit of work, and they get paid in cents per hour. Something I think people are losing sight of is everything you lose when you're a convicted felon. You lose your freedom, everday things people take for granted. Try and remember that. As for Osama Bin Laden, that's an entire different issue and not what we're talking about here. The prison system and what we're discussing about it largely involves everday Americans who commit crimes, not foreign terrorists who fly planes in to buildings and kill 3,000 people. -----signature----- The will is everything. If you make yourself more than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal, you become something else entirely. Are you ready to begin?
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anakin_girl Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR Charlotte , NC Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/2/04 9:34pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	You lose your freedom, everday things people take for granted. Once you've raped and murdered someone, I don't think losing your freedom is enough. -----signature----- "A person should not believe in an -ism, a person should believe in himself." Ferris Bueller
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Vezner Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 6/3/04 10:10am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	A_G, I have agreed with you on every statement you have made in this thread! Who would have thought it possible?! It's nice to see some commonality between two people who typically have nothing in common. -----signature----- Say NO to socialism Say NO to more government control of your life Say NO to runaway government spending http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MQ2pk7kkm4&feature=player_profilepage Vote NO to Obama in 2012 and NO to his congressional lackies in 2010
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