Jedi Council Forums - The State of Prisons in U.S.

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Author	Topic: The State of Prisons in U.S.
GarthSchmader Registered: Jan '03	Date Posted: 6/3/04 10:29am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	Here's a link to an article from that fair and balanced bastion of unapologetically liberal journalism, The Nation: Our Cameras in NY's Prisons -----signature----- "MTV does for MUSIC what KFC does for CHICKEN!" -Louis Black
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Mr44 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/3/04 10:36am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S. - Date Edited: 6/3/04 10:43am (1 edits total) Edited By: Mr44
	I've really missed my daily dose of unconventional wisdom. Although amounting to what is basically nothing more than a solicitation for cash, it raises some interesting points this time. Still, it must sting a bit, to use such bourgeoisie methodology to enlighten the masses. -----signature----- When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise He has started to think and is therefore dangerous... -- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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Texas_Cowboy Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 6/3/04 10:53am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	. The prison system and what we're discussing about it largely involves everday Americans who commit crimes, not foreign terrorists who fly planes in to buildings and kill 3,000 people. What difference does killing 1 person, or 3,000 make? Murder is murder. It is no different. -----signature----- Don't Mess With Texas: God Blessed Texas With his Own Hands Re-Elect Bush 2004 Remember the Alamo Remember Goliad Dios Bendice América Why can't we all just get a longneck
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Jediflyer Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 6/3/04 11:23am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	Murder is murder. I think you should revise that statement, otherwise, you have just eliminated your almighty death penalty. -----signature----- As long as the differences and diversities of mankind exist, democracy must allow for compromise, for accommodation, and for the recognition of differences. -Eugene McCarthy There are no dialogues, only intersecting monologues -Mark Twain
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Mr44 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/3/04 11:27am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	well, technically, the death penalty is homicide, not murder.. Legally, that is, it is up to the individual to determine how much weight that pulls on the moral side of the equation... -----signature----- When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise He has started to think and is therefore dangerous... -- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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MaceWinducannotdie Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 6/3/04 11:47am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	You're kidding, I hope. You would prefer that dangerous people roam the street? Nope. Why the hell should I have to pay for someone else's room and board simply because the jack** decided to commit murder? I have to pay my own room and board and I'm not a murderer!* I have to pay for the military. A big fat amount, much more than prisons, I'd wager. I guess every time we win a war we should take as much reparations money as we can get. And hardly everyone in prison is a murderer; most of them will get out after awhile. And I don't want some damn revolving door where a punk goes in a car-thief and goes out a murderer just because of public schadenfreude. -----signature----- Talk is cheap and you're causing massive deflation.
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dizfactor Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/3/04 11:54am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S. - Date Edited: 6/3/04 12:03pm (1 edits total) Edited By: dizfactor
	But the difference is, his prisoners were innocent. no, they weren't. not even remotely. they had all killed any number of people, resisted arrest, conspired to overthrow the government, committed espionage... the list goes on and on. Han and Chewie smuggled drugs before that. the Empire considered itself to be a legitimate government, and many, perhaps even most, of its citizens agreed. from the Empire's perspective, these people are remorseless repeat offenders, making trouble for decent people and killing everyone who stands in their way. they're terrorists, and i'm sure that whatever Vader did to them was legal under Imperial law. you just sympathize with Han, Leia, et al because the story's told from their perspective, and because you're not a prisoner, and you're not from the same background that most prisoners are from, you don't seem to even be interested in attempting to see things from their perspective. you can believe in whatever you want, but if you think that the answer to crime and social unrest is in increasingly draconian punishments, then you're on the Empire's side in the SW movies, and you're exactly the people GL has made the prequels to warn people about: the people who trade freedom to tyrants for the illusion of security. I think a better comparison would be Anakin killing the Tuskens who tortured his mother to death--and believe me, I was yelling "Go Ani! Go Ani!" during that scene. frankly, that's sick. personally, i lost all respect for Padme for not turning the psycho in to the Jedi when she had the chance. dizfactor: "Every fourth minority male" isn't guilty. well, 1 out of every 4 black men spends some time in jail or prison in their lives. if you're putting prisoners to work without pay, you are de facto enslaving 1 out of every 4 black men for at least some part of their lives. whether the individuals in question are guilty of something or not is secondary at this point. we know that poverty breeds crime. we know that if employment levels and incomes and education levels go down in an area, crime rates will go up. locking up the people who commit the crimes after that is like locking the barn door after the horse escapes. you knew someone was going to do it. why focus everything on the people who come out at the end of the process? criminals are the symptom of the problem, not the cause. it's totally bass-ackwards to think that punishing criminals more severely lowers crime rates. it's like thinking that covering zits with makeup treats acne. and if you know that the root problem is more of a problem in certain minority communities than it is in other communities, then you have to acknowledge the racism inherent at unleashing society's full fury on people who commit crime and ignoring the people who make the political and economic decisions which shape the environment that creates crime. I agree with you to a point, but the way to fix the problem you're presenting is not to make prisons comfortable for the prisoners-- no one's talking about "comfortable." we're talking about "not barbaric." it's to fix the corruption in the justice system, get rid of the Johnny Cochranes, so that people with fatter wallets don't get off so easily. i wouldn't call defense lawyers "corruption in the justice system." yes, they get people off. that's their job, because someone has to make the best case possible for every defendant. EDIT: I have air conditioning, but I work full time and pay for it. you're also not crammed into a box at gunpoint with a bunch of other people in boxes. if you don't have air conditioning, you can walk outside and sit in the shade. there's no health risk involved. but if you cram a bunch of people into tightly confined spaces, it gets hot, and someone's likely to die. most of them will get out after awhile. And I don't want some damn revolving door where a punk goes in a car-thief and goes out a murderer just because of public schadenfreude. that's also a really good point. most people aren't in prison for life, and the harsher the prison is, the less likely a productive member of society will come out the other side. the way i see it, when we have to imprison someone, it's as much an admission of failure on our part as it is a punishment for them. we, collectively, did something not as well as we could have. i'm not saying that in a guilty white liberal way, i'm just talking about looking at the whole thing as an opportunity to correct mistakes. we can take their time out and teach them useful skills, send them to rehab or therapy or whatever, and maybe we can make an omelette with some broken eggs. maybe not, but why not give it a shot? -----signature----- "Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century." Julian Dibbell "You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat." Gryph
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MaceWinducannotdie Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 6/3/04 12:12pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	Hey, everyone look up the Tallulah prison down in Lousisiana. That's the "benefit" of tough deterrence. From the Minneapolis Star Tribune: In ordering the closing of Tallulah, state legislators noted last year that Louisiana's juvenile offenders wind up back in prison at a rate of 60 percent--far higher than in other states. pwned. -----signature----- Talk is cheap and you're causing massive deflation.
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Guinastasia Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/3/04 12:26pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	Um, peeps, the problem with all of these suggestions is that they violate the Constitution. YOu know, all that stuff about "cruel and unusual punishments" and stuff? Yeah. -----signature----- Founder of the Face Loran & Ton Phanan Appreciation Society Dark Lady of the JCC, currently retired Member of the Obi-Wan Kenobi Fan Club High Dominatrix of Flyboys, WJFC EUDF Captain, Retired Ravenclaw 0wns your sorry ass
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Vezner Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 6/3/04 1:24pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	I don't think that making people do "work" or to throw a murderers sorry butt in a boring prison cell is considered cruel or unusual. It's called life and justice. "Cruel" is when you torture someone by whacking fingers off and stuff and "unusual" is what our prison system is right now when we give prisoners such an easy time after committing a crime. -----signature----- Say NO to socialism Say NO to more government control of your life Say NO to runaway government spending http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MQ2pk7kkm4&feature=player_profilepage Vote NO to Obama in 2012 and NO to his congressional lackies in 2010
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Crix-Madine Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 6/3/04 1:37pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	I would love to see you spend a full day in a federal prison and come out after telling me it's a hotel. That goes to all of you complainers out there that think it's a cakewalk. I find this amusing, coming from someone who thinks free speech is awesome...just not bad words, because that isn't free speech, right? People should only say what you want to hear and what's polite, and especially nothing that isn't "patriotic". -----signature----- The will is everything. If you make yourself more than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal, you become something else entirely. Are you ready to begin?
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anakin_girl Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR Charlotte , NC Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/3/04 1:42pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	dizfactor: I find the word "psycho" beyond offensive, and that's the understatement of the year. The word "psycho" is used to insult people who have a mental illness. Are you going to go around calling a diabetic a "sugarphobe" or worse? Are you going to call someone with cancer a "cell-multiplying freak"? And as far as Anakin--if your mother is brutally tortured to death, I'd like to see you walk up to her murderers, say "awwwww, let's be friends", and give them a big, sloppy kiss on the cheek. The day you can do that, call Anakin (and me--I don't appreciate being called "sick" ) all the names you want. Until then, save your judgment and insults. If Padme had been so cold-hearted and cruel that she would turn on Anakin after his mother had just been brutally tortured to death, if she had expected him to be nice and sweet to her murderers, I would hate her. But this probably belongs in the Movie Forums--and the main reason I stopped going over there was due to the proliferation of Anakin-haters who would defend the Tusken thugs, because of course, since they hurt Anakin, they must be in the right. I digress. My point was that I do not appreciate being called "sick" simply because I'm not going to sympathize with thugs who kidnap an innocent woman and torture her to death. I sympathize with her grieving son. If that makes me "sick", I hope there are a lot more "sick" people in the world, because quite frankly, I find anyone who sympathizes with the Tusken thugs worse than "sick". Back on topic, I also will not sympathize with murderers in real life. That's why I really don't give a rat's ass if prison makes them a little uncomfortable. However they feel sweating in their cells, I can guarantee that the victims' families feel worse. Vezner: I am liberal in most areas, but putting up with bull**** from people who would threaten my family is not one of them. I know how I would feel if someone in my family got murdered--and I would not want the murderer in a comfy cell with cable TV and Internet. MaceWinducannotdie: The kind of mercy you're talking about would turn us all into a bunch of wusses and doormats. -----signature----- "A person should not believe in an -ism, a person should believe in himself." Ferris Bueller
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Vezner Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 6/3/04 1:44pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S. - Date Edited: 6/3/04 1:44pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Vezner
	Crix-Madine, Ignoring your "baiting" comments concerning my sig, I disagree with you about how "hard" our prison system is. IMO if you commit a crime you shouldn't have such luxeries (like TV and internet) anymore. You should be thrown in a cell with nothing to do but twiddle your thumbs and maybe read some educational books (not entertainment novels). You should also have to do hard labor (like work chain gangs and etc). They make it too easy on criminals now days. I think that is one of the big reasons for our increased crime rate and extra crowded prison system. -----signature----- Say NO to socialism Say NO to more government control of your life Say NO to runaway government spending http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MQ2pk7kkm4&feature=player_profilepage Vote NO to Obama in 2012 and NO to his congressional lackies in 2010
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anakin_girl Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR Charlotte , NC Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/3/04 2:20pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	Just to add--I see the Anakin/Tusken situation the way I see Samuel L. Jackson's character in John Grisham's "A Time to Kill". For those of you who don't know the story, a couple of redneck thugs raped his daughter. Carl Lee, Jackson's character, knew that because they lived in a racist part of Mississippi, the rednecks would probably not be convicted for the rape. So he bought a gun and killed them. Similar to what Anakin did--there was no justice system on Tatooine other than the whims of the Hutts, so either Anakin killed the Tuskens or they would get away with murdering his mother. Hence why I applauded him--"Go Ani--show that they messed with the mother of the wrong person." As far as I'm concerned, everyone who thinks Anakin was "psycho" thinks that what the Tuskens did was perfectly OK and they should be allowed to get away with it. I was cheering for Carl Lee in "A Time to Kill", too. But I suppose that makes me "sick", since I don't think rapists should get away with molesting a ten-year-old girl to the point where her entire reproductive system was ruined. -----signature----- "A person should not believe in an -ism, a person should believe in himself." Ferris Bueller
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Darth Geist Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 6/3/04 2:35pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	I must have missed the scene where Carl Lee killed the perpetrators' entire families. Anyway: Diz, you talk like you're completely absolving all criminals of all personal responsibility. Are you? -----signature----- When George Lucas was in his early twenties, he was wrecking his health in the burning Tunisian desert, risking a new and fragile career on a movie no one believed in. When I was in my early twenties, I was complaining on the Internet about George Lucas.
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