Jedi Council Forums - The State of Prisons in U.S.

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Author	Topic: The State of Prisons in U.S.
Texas_Cowboy Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 6/4/04 12:35pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	Why does everything have to come back to Star Wars? It's a movie. -----signature----- Don't Mess With Texas: God Blessed Texas With his Own Hands Re-Elect Bush 2004 Remember the Alamo Remember Goliad Dios Bendice América Why can't we all just get a longneck
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Cyprusg Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 6/4/04 7:55pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	I personally think that anybody who commits an extremely violent crime like rape should be eligible for death as long as DNA evidence was present. (not including statch) I'm sick and tired of hearing about these rapists that got out of prison in less than 5 years. I know somebody who stole cars, and he got 8 years in prison. Tell me what's worse, stealing a car or raping somebody? Our prison sentences are a JOKE. As far as prisons in general, I'm fine with prisoners in a minimum security prison having TV. Most prisoners can be rehabilitated, I do think taking away all privileges is the best way to rehabilitate somebody. But I doubt think weights should be allowed in any prison at any time. I'm not sure what the exact percentages are, but if someone commits a violent crime there is a good chance they're going to do the same, they shouldn't be more physically fit to the job better that's for sure. But despite what some have said, TVs and other such privileges are offered to maximum security prisoners. -----signature----- The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge
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Branthoris Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 6/6/04 6:43am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	Cyprusg, why does the presence of DNA evidence have anything to do with whether a person should be eligible for the death sentence? By your proposal, death would be permitted in the case of rape where semen from the defendant was found within a mile of the crime scene, but not where the accused was seen by a crowd of 100 people raping the victim in broad daylight. The word 'absurd' comes to mind. You conclude that "prison sentences are a JOKE" on the basis of vague anecdotes about "rapists that got out of prison in less than 5 years". Perhaps if you posted the circumstances and details of the case to which you're referring, we could actually make an informed judgement. Your logic for removing weights, for its part, applies only to violent prisoners, not to anyone who happens to be sent to prison. And it's weak logic at that.
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anakin_girl Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR Charlotte , NC Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/6/04 6:57am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	It doesn't happen very often but I agree with cyprus here. Our prison sentences are a joke. Someone who commits rape or first-degree murder should not be eligible for parole, period. As for weight rooms--I think the only people who should be in prison are violent offenders and thieves anyway. What's the point in putting a bad-check writer behind bars? Hell, even with thieves, it's almost better to put them to work and force them to pay back double or triple what they stole. Drunk drivers--take away their damn licenses. As far as the death penalty and eyewitnesses--it really depends. I was sickened when Gary Graham of Texas got sentenced to death based on the testimony of one eyewitness, who had seen "Graham" commit the crime from 40 feet away and then couldn't pick him out in a lineup. If you're going to use eyewitnesses to convict someone to death, I hope someone has taken pictures. An example of a joke sentence: A North Carolina woman, Barbara Stager, murdered both of her husbands by shooting them to death and then pretending they had accidents. The first murder, which happened in the 70s, Barbara pretended was a case of her husband cleaning his gun and it accidentally going off. She got away scot-free with that one, although her father-in-law said no way would his son have a gun accident because he was trained in gun safety. The second murder in the late 80s made the first one come back to light: she shot her husband in the back of the head in his sleep and then pretended that he had been sleeping with a gun under his pillow and it had gone off. People naturally thought it was a tad coincidental that one woman had two husbands who died in accidental gun deaths. However, Ms. Stager will be out of jail in a couple of years--according to the author Jerry Bledsoe, "looking for a new husband". Bledsoe said he was going to be sure she didn't know where he lives. Does a woman like that not deserve to be in prison for life--even if she is pretending to be such a good Christian and holding Bible studies for all the women there? -----signature----- "A person should not believe in an -ism, a person should believe in himself." Ferris Bueller
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Branthoris Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 6/6/04 8:41am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	anakin_girl, bad-cheque writers need to be put in prison in certain circumstances for the purposes of punishment and deterrence. Writing a bad cheque for a certain amount has the same effect as stealing goods worth that amount. I can most definitely conceive of circumstances where imprisonment would be appropriate--a bad cheque for, say, £2500, used to 'buy' expensive electrical equipment. If such a cheque were written by a repeat offender, who had already been fined and given community punishment, a prison sentence would be fully warranted. Similarly, with drunk drivers, because of the harm caused (i.e. a substantial risk of death or serious injury), mere disqualification just won't do. Long prison sentences are needed to deter and punish such behaviour, because the harm caused is so great. My view is that if the death penalty is acceptable (and I don't personally believe that it is), then it must be imposed on the same standard of proof as all other penalties. "Proof beyond reasonable doubt" is used for everything from a £50 fine to life imprisonment, and it would not make any sense to require a higher standard just when the penalty is death. I too am "sickened" to hear that "Gary Graham of Texas got sentenced to death based on the testimony of one eyewitness, who had seen 'Graham' commit the crime from 40 feet away and then couldn't pick him out in a lineup". However, that evidence, if you've given a fair picture of it, should not be sound enough for any conviction--capital or otherwise. The standard of proof in any criminal trial is "beyond reasonable doubt", and if a single eyewitness who couldn't pick him out in a lineup was enough to convict Graham, then that standard has been lost sight of. As for Barbara Stager, the individual circumstances would have to be looked at. Was there a history of abuse from both husbands? Will she be monitored and supervised when out of jail? Has she been assessed to determine whether it's safe to release her? If it's been reliably determined that she no longer poses a risk and there is no prospect of her re-offending, then we come back to the circumstances of the crime: has she served enough time for the purposes of punishment alone?
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anakin_girl Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR Charlotte , NC Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/6/04 8:53am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S. - Date Edited: 6/6/04 9:00am (2 edits total) Edited By: anakin_girl
	I read a true-crime book on her case, and no, there was no abuse from the husbands. What happened was that she had a spending problem--her idea of being "comfortable" was, as my husband would say, like a yuppie on steroids--and she wanted their insurance money. Husband #2 shared her propensity for having Dom Perignon taste on a Pabst-Blue-Ribbon income. She was also a pathological liar: she had her tubes tied after having two sons off Husband #1, but then because Husband #2 wanted children, she didn't bother to tell him that she had had the surgery--instead she pretended to be pregnant and miscarry several times. She also pretended to write a book on her first husband's death and sell it to Doubleday--even faked a letterhead saying she was getting $400,000 for it so that she would have an excuse to go out and spend more money. She also pretended to have several jobs that she didn't really have so that her husband would be convinced to buy a large house that she wanted. (He was a teacher and a coach at a high school in Durham, NC--trust me, his career was not a money maker). This entire time, she was pretending to be a good church-every-Sunday Christian. The guy who wrote the true-crime book doesn't seem to think there would be any rehabilitation for her, not after the stuff she's pulled. Not that his opinion is gospel necessarily, but you'd have to do a lot of convincing if I were on the parole board. It quite frankly scares the hell out of me that she's going to be getting out in a couple of years. Put it this way: my brother lives in Greensboro and is moving to Chapel Hill for law school, and I'm very thankful that, one, he isn't easily duped, two, he's already married, and three, he's nearly thirty years younger than Stager. However, that evidence, if you've given a fair picture of it, should not be sound enough for any conviction--capital or otherwise. It was in June 2000--I wrote a letter to Dubya when he was still Governor of Texas, asking him to please pardon Graham (for the record, I got a very pleasant response from his office--I was impressed). I don't remember where I got my information from, but I actually looked at several sources, all of which said the same thing. Graham, unfortunately, had a prior record of theft, breaking and entering, etc., which worked against him. -----signature----- "A person should not believe in an -ism, a person should believe in himself." Ferris Bueller
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Mr44 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/6/04 8:54am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	AG, I don't know where you are getting your information recently, but originally, Stager recieved a sentence of death. The NC supreme court reduced it to life in prison. INMATE INFO Seriously, she was convicted of first degree murder. This offense carries mandatory sentencing criteria. Maybe what you are thinking of is the parole system in NC. After a set time, Stager may be eligible for parole, but this is not automatic, and depends on the sentencing structure. I don't know NC specifics, so if you are really interested, you would have to get a copy of their criminal code. Generally, I think the discussion in this thread would be improved if people started actually providing links for their assertions, rather than just rallying against an opinion they hold. Personal opinion =/= actual fact. -----signature----- When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise He has started to think and is therefore dangerous... -- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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KnightWriter Title: Administrator Emeritus Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 6/6/04 8:57am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	It seems to me that single cases are being used to prove some sort of rule or problem. That's not usually a good way to go. -----signature----- Opposing Scrooge Economics since 2009
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anakin_girl Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR Charlotte , NC Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/6/04 8:58am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	Mr44: The book Before He Wakes by Jerry Bledsoe. It has been about ten years since I read it. As I understand, Stager is eligible for parole in around 2006, and because she's pulling her usual fake-out stunts pretending to be a good Christian, holding Bible studies for the other women in the prison, Bledsoe seems to think she'll be released at parole time. -----signature----- "A person should not believe in an -ism, a person should believe in himself." Ferris Bueller
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Mr44 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/6/04 9:18am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	Mr44: The book Before He Wakes by Jerry Bledsoe. I'm not disputing that. I don't know anything about Bledsoe, or what kind of book he wrote. I'm simply saying that one would have to go look up NC's sentencing guidelines to determine the status of this case. Just because a "real crime" author thinks a person may be released on parole, does not make it so. Basically, this is my point as well: It seems to me that single cases are being used to prove some sort of rule or problem. That's not usually a good way to go. Regarding Gary Graham, saying he had a "few prior thefts" is an understatement as well: The Texas execution Information Center has a different view, for what it's worth: HERE Gary Graham was linked to 22 prior crimes, including 10 counts of aggravated robbery (firearm used), auto theft, and sexual assault. Two prior victims (Gary Spiers, Greg Jones) identified Graham as the person who shot them, and left them for dead. That's not to say that this site proves the rule either, but there are certainly two sides to every story. Why is it so easy for you to call one woman a "liar and a manipulator," but absolutely believe another person charged with a crime? What about consistancy in standard? -----signature----- When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise He has started to think and is therefore dangerous... -- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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DarthBud Registered: Jan '03	Date Posted: 6/6/04 10:17am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	I've shared this with my class, I'll see what you think. We should get rid of prisons altogether. A trial would always be a jury trial and their decision would be final, no appeal. A jury would consist of 25 people, majority rules. Capital punishiment would be the only punishment. There would be exceptions like, killing an intruder, protecting your family or friends. I think within 5-10 years after implementing it, society would be virtually crime free. It would be as close to Utopia as we humans would ever get, as long as you were a law biding citizen. Yes, there would be some who would exploit the system. But overall it would be successfull. -----signature----- The demons we fight are the demons we create. I'm becoming who people think I am and slowly losing who I really am.
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anakin_girl Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR Charlotte , NC Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/6/04 10:22am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S. - Date Edited: 6/6/04 10:34am (2 edits total) Edited By: anakin_girl
	Mr44: Why is it so easy for you to call one woman a "liar and a manipulator," but absolutely believe another person charged with a crime? What about consistancy in standard? I, like you, believe what I choose to believe based on the information I'm given. Why that makes me some sort of horrible person but not anyone else, when most everyone does the same thing, is beyond me. I get attacked personally in every thread I'm in. Funny that I post regularly on about six or seven message boards, but this only happens on TF.N. Therefore, I know it isn't me. DarthBud: There's only one problem with that--every crime would have to be deserving of death. Even as a libertarian who believes that only violent crimes deserve jail sentences, I don't believe that all criminals should be executed. -----signature----- "A person should not believe in an -ism, a person should believe in himself." Ferris Bueller
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Jediflyer Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 6/6/04 10:23am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	Darthbud, that was a Star Trek: The Next Generation Episode. -----signature----- As long as the differences and diversities of mankind exist, democracy must allow for compromise, for accommodation, and for the recognition of differences. -Eugene McCarthy There are no dialogues, only intersecting monologues -Mark Twain
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Branthoris Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 6/6/04 10:32am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
	anakin_girl: it appals me that a jury was allowed to convict on such evidence. In England the prosecution would be thrown out as 'no case to answer' (where there is so little evidence that no reasonable jury could convict). Your details about Stager don't seem so outrageous. In 2006, she will have presumably served about 20 years, and her minimum term is surely concerned with punishment alone. Being eligible for parole is a world away from getting parole, so she'll presumably remain in jail as long as she's considered a risk to men. Mr44, again the actual details of the case make it slightly less worrying, but only slightly. When the standard of proof is "beyond reasonable doubt", a single eyewitness who didn't pick out the defendant in an identity parade isn't enough, previous convictions notwithstanding.
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DarthBud Registered: Jan '03	Date Posted: 6/6/04 10:36am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S. - Date Edited: 6/6/04 10:39am (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthBud
	"There's only one problem with that--every crime would have to be deserving of death." Every crime would become that, no matter how small the crime was. Harsh I know. In the beginning some would test it, but after the first years, people would understand, Break the law=Death. I thought this up for an assignment in school. My professor told us to write a paper on how to achieve Utopia. I got an "A", but she wrote, she hopes I never run for public office. -----signature----- The demons we fight are the demons we create. I'm becoming who people think I am and slowly losing who I really am.
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