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Author Topic: The State of Prisons in U.S.
Mr44  15160 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
 Registered: May '02
Date Posted: 6/6/04 7:11pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S. - Date Edited: 6/6/04 7:13pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Mr44
I don't know about your state, but in England there are two types of 'mental state' defence.

Branthoris, it is generally the same in the US.

Cyprusg,

Unfortunately for whatever reason I'm having troubles finding what the actual minimum sentence is on a rape conviction... *shakes fist at google*

you may have better luck looking up criminal sexual assault, instead of rape.

Except for a few exceptions, "rape" isn't a criminal charge in most jurisdictions.

The specific legal term is crim sexual assualt or crim sexual abuse.

(sexual assault, in easy terms is forced penetration. sexual abuse is lack of penetration, or statutory acts)

The term "rape" is more of a social/slang term now.

It began to change about 15 years ago, in order to officiate the charge and to remove some of the stigma that the victims would face.

Anyway,

typically, the standard charge for criminal sexual assault is a class 1 felony.

The standard range would be 7-15 years.

Aggravating circumstances (age, wepon used, handicapped victim, permament injury, so on) become a muliplier, adding 15 years, up to natural life to the sentence.

The typical charge for criminal sexual abuse is a class A misdemeanor, which would be 6 months prison, and a 1,000 fine.

Additional charges of abuse after the first would add 4-10 years to the sentence.

With the law, it is important to detail the exact charges that were brought against someone.

A newspaper may label a person a "rapist," for example, but if no penetration was present, the actual charge would be abuse, which is a lesser offense.

Every offense has to meet the elements that apply, regardless of public opinion.

 

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When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move-
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He has started to think and is therefore dangerous...
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Branthoris  661 posts
Registered: Nov '02
6473_Clone Emperor
Date Posted: 6/7/04 7:38am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
That's true. It's also important to realise that newspaper summaries of particular cases, while not literally inaccurate, may give an entirely unfair picture of the detailed circumstances involved.

 
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DarthBud  373 posts
Registered: Jan '03
20891_Darth Vader Art
Date Posted: 6/7/04 9:47am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
"To quote Tarkin, 'Fear would keep them inline.'
Hehehe... Tarkin was wrong." Darth Guy

Tell that to Alderan, oh wait he blew it up grin

 

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The demons we fight are the demons we create.
I'm becoming who people think I am
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Cyprusg  2270 posts
Registered: Nov '02
8225_Duel
Date Posted: 6/7/04 10:43am Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
Thanks for the unneeded law lesson Mr_44, criminal sexual assault is what I was searching for. I still couldn't find any good information on it.

Although I did just find information on New Jersey law about aggravated sexual assault. The minimum sentence for aggravated sexual assault is 5 years in prison. 5 FRICKIN YEARS!

In some drug cases the mandatory minimum sentence is 10 years! Even one case that's going on right now this guy in a wheelchair was forging his doctors name for painkillers (he's been in a wheelchair in the 80s and suffers from chronic back pain), because of the amount of painkillers he's received he's going to receive a minimum 25 year prison sentence for drug trafficking.

Violent crime such as aggravated rape should ALWAYS carry a harsher punishment than drug cases or robbery. Who would you rather have in your neighborhood, someone that sells pot or a convicted child rapist that only got 10 years in prison?

As far as newspapers mislabeling (I call it mislabeling because rape is universally thought of as penetration regardless of textbook definition) I don't think that has been a problem for any case I've ever read in my life. Most people refer to rape as sexual penetration and generally when newspaper or news programs talk about these cases they give more information than "he raped somebody".

 

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The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge
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Branthoris  661 posts
Registered: Nov '02
6473_Clone Emperor
Date Posted: 6/7/04 12:18pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
What is the problem with criminal law lessons, from Mr44 or otherwise, in a thread about just that?

Cyprusg, you complain that "the minimum sentence for aggravated sexual assault is 5 years in prison". In Britain, there is no minimum sentence at all, and for good reason: mandatory sentences lead to grave injustices, because cases will always arise that were not envisioned when the law was drafted. You have yourself identified such an injustice: mandatory sentences for drug offences operating against those who use them to relieve chronic pain. The solution is to remove mandatory drug-offence sentences, not to extend the minimum sentencing scheme.

 
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Mr44  15160 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
 Registered: May '02
Date Posted: 6/7/04 1:39pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
First of all, Cyprusg, I wasn't giving anyone a "law lesson," I was simply trying to help you with some facts, after you, yourself, said you had trouble looking it up.

Beyond that, if you are going to rant about somebody helping you, at least get the rant right.

Under New Jersey law, Aggravated Sexual Assault
New Jersey Statutes 2C:14-2: Sexual assault, as an aggravating factor:

your "five year minimum" statement is not accurate.

2C:14-2

Aggravated sexual assault is a crime of the first degree and is punishable by:

Imprisonment for ten to twenty years;

A fine of up to $200,000; or

Both; or

Imprisonment for a term of five years with no chance of parole; or

Imprisonment for a term of thirty years to life.

You see, as with any offense, Agg sexual assault has differing elements of the offfense that have to be met.

Depending on which element was met (age of victim, act tied to another offense, disabled victim, etc..) would determine which punishment applies.

You can't simply take one element out of context and claim "In New Jersey rapists only get 5 years," just so it conforms to your opinion.

The law has to meet the standards that apply.

But that's my bad, I thought this was a thread about US prsion systems and criminal punishments.

 

-----signature-----
When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move-
hostile or otherwise
He has started to think and is therefore dangerous...
-- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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anakin_girl  14958 posts
Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR
Charlotte , NC
 Registered: Oct '00
48285_Good Morning Galaxy
Date Posted: 6/7/04 2:17pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
Branthoris: Do you happen to know if crime in the UK is lower than that in the US?

 

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Cyprusg  2270 posts
Registered: Nov '02
8225_Duel
Date Posted: 6/7/04 3:48pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
First of all, Cyprusg, I wasn't giving anyone a "law lesson," I was simply trying to help you with some facts, after you, yourself, said you had trouble looking it up.

You come across like you're talking down to people, if it were somebody else I wouldn't have even noticed it.

Beyond that, if you are going to rant about somebody helping you, at least get the rant right.

Under New Jersey law, Aggravated Sexual Assault
New Jersey Statutes 2C:14-2: Sexual assault, as an aggravating factor:

your "five year minimum" statement is not accurate.

2C:14-2

Aggravated sexual assault is a crime of the first degree and is punishable by:

Imprisonment for ten to twenty years;

A fine of up to $200,000; or

Both; or

Imprisonment for a term of five years with no chance of parole; or

Imprisonment for a term of thirty years to life.

You see, as with any offense, Agg sexual assault has differing elements of the offfense that have to be met.

Depending on which element was met (age of victim, act tied to another offense, disabled victim, etc..) would determine which punishment applies.

You can't simply take one element out of context and claim "In New Jersey rapists only get 5 years," just so it conforms to your opinion.

The law has to meet the standards that apply.

Of course, and find me where I said "in new jersey rapists only get 5 years". It seems to be a theme on this message board to put words in my mouth, is there a tradition I don't know about? Read what that says again, is aggravated sexual assault's minimum prison sentence not 5 years?

 

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The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge
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Branthoris  661 posts
Registered: Nov '02
6473_Clone Emperor
Date Posted: 6/7/04 4:10pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S.
It would appear to be, but what conclusions are you attempting to draw from that?

 
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Mr44  15160 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
 Registered: May '02
Date Posted: 6/7/04 7:08pm Subject: RE: The State of Prisons in U.S. - Date Edited: 6/7/04 7:41pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Mr44
Read what that says again, is aggravated sexual assault's minimum prison sentence not 5 years?

No, it is not.

I wasn't trained in New Jersey, so one would have to specifically look up which elements apply to which sentencing guidelines, but it follows the basic principle for aggravating factors.

For example, it looks like the New Jersey criminal code considers "position of authority" as an aggravating factor.

So, if a nursing home attendent has relations with a elderly patient, that person may be subject to the 5 year minimum sentence.

However, the criminal code always considers the use of a weapon a factor as well, although not automatically the same weight.

So, if a man uses a knife to force himself onto a 12 year old girl, the sentence would start at no less than 30 years to life.

See, while an orderly having sex with a eldery patient who has diminished capacity for consent is bad, the second example is clearly worse.

That's why your example " The minimum sentence for aggravated sexual assault is 5 years in prison. 5 FRICKIN YEARS!" is not accurate, especially given the example you used following this statement.

"Violent crime such as aggravated rape should ALWAYS carry a harsher punishment than drug cases or robbery. "

That's not how the legal system works. The overall minimum is not simply 5 years, that represents a single element.

Because you are not matching up the proper elements to the corresponding penalties.

What you seem to be doing is similiar to looking at one part of the murder statute and claiming "OMG, murderers only get 3 years in prison!!!"

Well, the law distinguishes between 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder and manslaughter.

The 3 year minimum for manslaughter does not represent the entire offense of murder, and vice versa.

EDIT: and why this overall concept is so important has been breifly touched on before.

Too often, people look at a news story, or God forbid, have something happen to them, and then try to use their perception as an illustration of the overall trend.













 

-----signature-----
When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move-
hostile or otherwise
He has started to think and is therefore dangerous...
-- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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