Jedi Council Forums - Revenge of the Return of *Homosexuals are Gay* Reloaded

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Author	Topic: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded
Jedi Merkurian Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 6/7/04 8:19pm Subject: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded - Date Edited: 9/23/05 6:58am (3 edits total) Edited By: Kimball_Kinnison
	Alright, even though the previous incarnation of the "Homosexuals are gay" thread degenerated into a flame war, I think in the interest of sprited discussion, we ought to give it another go. I'd like to suggest a couple of house rules to help foster more intelligent debate about homosexuality this time around. Rule One: Just because it's in The Bible, you're not automatically right! The Bible -or whatever religious text you ascribe to- is a translation of several different compiled works. Divinely inspired, yes. Subject to human error, possibly. Moreover, religious texts -the Bible in particular- have a lot to say about a lot of things, not all of which we follow verbatim these days. Whether or not this is a good thing is beyond the scope of this thread. See also Rule Two, below. Rule Two: Just because it's in The Bible, they're not automatically wrong! That someone bases their beliefs about homosexuality on a religious text does not immediately make them a close-minded, dogmatic bigot. Religious faith shouldn't instantly invalidate someone's POV. Whether or not the religious texts in use are correct is also beyond the scope of this thread. See also Rule One, above. The point of these two rules is this: don't simply hide beyond religious dogma, saying "Because this book says God says so!" Similarly, don't simply dismiss somebody's point because of their faith, or launch into a "that book is wrong" tirade. Show the respect you'd like to receive. Debate using ideas, not dogma. Happy posting KK EDIT: Locking in favor of the next thread. -----signature----- Striking down can result in common side effects including fear, anger, aggresion, nausea, dry mouth, hatred, suffering, headaches, IBS, & in some extreme cases has been linked to lava burns Please consult your doctor before striking anyone down
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TripleB Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/7/04 8:26pm Subject: RE: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded - Date Edited: 6/7/04 9:06pm (1 edits total) Edited By: TripleB
	I posted the following on the previous thread. I think for someone whom is proud to say he is a Right Winger, I think the below should provide a suprising turn of views in what people think I think.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date Posted: 2/16 7:12pm Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage. You all want to know what is most pathetic about this entire debate here? The fact is, if you asked me a certain way, I would come back with supporing Domestic Partnerships and Civil Unions and would have no problem with granting either of them full equal status with traditional Marriage. If I had two gay or lesbian friends and they asked me to go to their wedding or whatever you want to call it, I would go. But when you ask me if the way San Fransisco has gone about doing that, I woudl say 100% they are in the wrong. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date Posted: 2/16 7:22pm Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage. - Date Edited: 2/16 7:25pm (1 edits total) Edited By: TripleB >>Chevyo said So, otherwise, you would like to see gay marriage recognized? << No, that I do oppose >> Do you believe all coupled unions wiching to promise themselves to only each other have the right to be granted marriage benefits, protections, and responsibilities equally?<< Now that is exactly what I believe there, that two men or women in a domestic partnership getting full equivelant status of marriage, that I can prescribe too. I believe that Gay people should be able to inherit or adopt or whatever like a married couple as well as all that stuff that comes with marriage. Just don't call it "Gay Marriage". >> Or do you believe that regardless of how change is brought about, it is wrong for gays to marry, because they are gay?<< It is wrong for gays to be "Married" because "marriage" is between a man and a woman. See above for the rest of my opinion. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date Posted: 2/17 8:08pm Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage. Good Points Bubba, As I tried to explain on the other page, I am 100% of the belief that gay peole deserve to find whatever happiness they can, and if that means going with another person of the same sex, that is fine with me. And I ever went that next step to say that I believe Civil Unions/Domestic Partnerships being granted 100% equal status as marriage, to have everything save that one word.....Marriage, because simply put, marriage is between a man and a woman and should not be changed. The problem is that the other side clearly represented here on this side, refuses to respect or acknowledge the other side in this debate. So when put up like that, it causes me to have to take a harder line here -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date Posted: 2/22 5:36pm Subject: RE: Why are liberals always so angry Go back to that thread. You will see I was 100% ok with Civil Unions/Domestic Partnerships being granted 100% full status of Marriage, where Marriage is for a man and a woman; and Unions/Partnerships being reserved for same sex (meaning you and you husband cannot get a civil union but could get married), and I made it clear I think Gays have the absolute right to equal protection and happiness, but you attacked me anyway because you want your left wing "Gay marriage" thru no matter what, even though that was what I was offering. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date Posted: 2/22 6:55pm Subject: RE: Why are liberals always so angry? - Date Edited: 2/22 7:04pm (2 edits total) Edited By: TripleB Lets see....for the umpteenth time...I have already gone on record about my belief that Gays have an absolute right to life and happiness and to live whith whomever they choose. I have already said that I believe Gay couoples are entitled to full protection under the law, and I have already said that I believe Civil Unions/Domestic Partnerships should carry the same weight of privelages and responsibility as a marriage has. And I have said that I believe that marriage is defined as between a man and a woman, and that any change on that is sacrilege. But unfortunately, that last sentence is too much for you -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date Posted: 2/24 8:07pm Subject: RE: Right vs. Left - Understanding the 'other side' (and decency in political discourse) - Date Edited: 2/24 8:14pm (1 edits total) Edited By: TripleB >>AG said Anyone who stands with Flush Limbaugh and Jerry "All Gay People were born with horns and pitchforks" Falwell is definitely not moderate. << Uh Huh, and I would say anyone leading a city like San Fransisco and doing what he has done (ie, Gavin Newsome) is no Centrist, despite someone elses claim. Despite the above statement, if it is any consolation to you, I don't believe gay people are borne with horns and pitchforks. I Don't know if being gay is biological or a choice, but I do believe that gay people should be free to find whatever happiness they can find in their life times, and I don't know how THe Lord will judge them when their times come. I like to think a gay person standing before him will have as good a chance at redemption as any of the other sinners of this world will have, myself included among the sinners. I hope that helps. More or less, what I am saying is that couples in Domestic Partnerships should recieve all 1,072 or whatever federal benefits that are given when one is married, entails a person to. I am ok with Gays being able to adopt their partners children, inheritence, visitation rights in hospitals, wills, every right that I get being married to a woman, members of the same sex should be able to recieve save ONE. The only thing I oppose is the word "Gay Marriage". Call it anything else, Domestic Partnership, Civil Union, and I am OK with it. Call it "Gay Marriage" and out comes the veto pen. -----signature----- 11/07/2006 is going to be a bad day for the Dem's, a great one for the gop because my political realities always pan out & because I will have seen Mel Gibson's THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST 100 times by then!!! VIVA OBI-WAN McCARTNEY!!!! Ep1&2<most EU
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Kimball_Kinnison Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 6/7/04 8:26pm Subject: RE: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded
	I will be keeping a close eye on this thread. I suggest that everyone try to use this not as a thread to try and disprove others' beliefs or opinions, but as a thread to try to understand opposing views. Who knows? You might even learn something. Kimball Kinnison -----signature----- You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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Jedi Merkurian Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 6/7/04 8:27pm Subject: RE: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded
	Now, that having been said... My question is "Why is homosexuality wrong?" Not in the sense of "it's not my problem, so I'm just gonna mind my own business." I understand the need to stand up for your beliefs, even if the situation doesn't affect you personally. IMO, something is wrong because someone or something is harmed in some way, shape, or form. Viewed in that light, how does homosexuality cause harm? -----signature----- Striking down can result in common side effects including fear, anger, aggresion, nausea, dry mouth, hatred, suffering, headaches, IBS, & in some extreme cases has been linked to lava burns Please consult your doctor before striking anyone down
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Jedi Merkurian Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 6/7/04 8:31pm Subject: RE: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded
	TripleB wrote: "I believe that Gay people should be able to inherit or adopt or whatever like a married couple as well as all that stuff that comes with marriage. Just don't call it 'Gay Marriage'." Why not? Why get stuck on that one word? Why do you attach such value to a word that you wish it to be the exclusive province of hetero couples? -----signature----- Striking down can result in common side effects including fear, anger, aggresion, nausea, dry mouth, hatred, suffering, headaches, IBS, & in some extreme cases has been linked to lava burns Please consult your doctor before striking anyone down
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TripleB Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/7/04 8:32pm Subject: RE: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded - Date Edited: 6/7/04 8:46pm (2 edits total) Edited By: TripleB
	It's not wrong. As what many of you would call a Right Wing Fundamentalist Christian (and proud), I guess I will probably surprise a lot of people when I say I don't really view HomoSexuality as a sin at all. I don't see it any different then my drinking, I see it more as a vice then anything else, something you shouldn't do, but it's not going to damn you either. I had a major falling out with my parents about 8 years ago (I mean a real falling out) and have not said a word to them since. I feel a level of hate and anger towards them and I am thus more of a sinner because I don't Honor my Father and Mother then any gay couple that is happy with each other probably is because of what they are. One of life's hypocrisys, I guess. Edit Jedi Murkurian said Why not? Why get stuck on that one word? Why do you attach such value to a word that you wish it to be the exclusive province of hetero couples? It is two words, when combined, produces an effect that I simply won't go along with. No different in my opinion then the slang term of the spanish word for Black that causes such a reaction in African Americans or so on. It would be like creating a new society to help jews, but calling it the Nazi's and using the swatika. There are words out there which just hurt to the core ,and the word "Gay Marriage" at this time is one of them. If it is of any hope to you, when you look at my above posted beliefs, if you told me 12 years ago that I woudl some day believe that, i would have laughed at you. -----signature----- 11/07/2006 is going to be a bad day for the Dem's, a great one for the gop because my political realities always pan out & because I will have seen Mel Gibson's THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST 100 times by then!!! VIVA OBI-WAN McCARTNEY!!!! Ep1&2<most EU
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Jedi Merkurian Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 6/7/04 8:38pm Subject: RE: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded - Date Edited: 6/7/04 8:41pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Jedi Merkurian
	"It's not wrong. As what many of you would call a Right Wing Fundamentalist Christian (and proud), I guess I will probably surprise a lot of people when I say I don't really view HomoSexuality as a sin at all. I don't see it any different then my drinking, I see it more as a vice then anything else, something you shouldn't do, but it's not going to damn you either. I had a major falling out with my parents about 8 years ago (I mean a real falling out) and have not said a word to them since, and I am probably more of a sinner because I don't Honor my Father and Mother then any gay couple probably is." My estimation of you has just grown, TripleB. However, let me make just one point: One chooses to drink. However, one does not choose to be gay. -----signature----- Striking down can result in common side effects including fear, anger, aggresion, nausea, dry mouth, hatred, suffering, headaches, IBS, & in some extreme cases has been linked to lava burns Please consult your doctor before striking anyone down
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TripleB Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/7/04 8:43pm Subject: RE: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded
	Jedi_Murkirian said My estimation of you has just grown, TripleB. However, let me make one point: One chooses to drink. However, one does not choose to be gay. I don't know that, about the 'choice' part. My receptionist at my work is openly gay. I can't say I remember her entire story, but she was at one point married to man before 'coming out of the closet' or finding herself. I asked her if it was biological or a choice once, and she could not really answer me, as at times she claims it may be both. -----signature----- 11/07/2006 is going to be a bad day for the Dem's, a great one for the gop because my political realities always pan out & because I will have seen Mel Gibson's THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST 100 times by then!!! VIVA OBI-WAN McCARTNEY!!!! Ep1&2<most EU
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Uruk-hai Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/7/04 9:00pm Subject: RE: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded
	I don't believe for a second you choose to be gay. -----signature----- Math is hard! Tho are etheth! Remember Bali 12th October 2002.
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Jedi Merkurian Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 6/7/04 9:13pm Subject: RE: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded
	"It would be like creating a new society to help jews, but calling it the Nazi's and using the swatika." I think I understand your logic. However, your analogy is very flawed. To go with your example, it would be as though heteros created an institution with the specific agenda of discriminating against and ultimately exterminating gays. You're not saying that's the case with hetero marriage, are you? -----signature----- Striking down can result in common side effects including fear, anger, aggresion, nausea, dry mouth, hatred, suffering, headaches, IBS, & in some extreme cases has been linked to lava burns Please consult your doctor before striking anyone down
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Semblance Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 6/7/04 9:18pm Subject: RE: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded
	I never decided to be attracted only to women (I'm male), so the most reasonable conclusion for me to reach is that gay people are the same. It's not a choice. Too many of my gay friends have talked about feeling that way all their lives, despite constant societal pressure. In addition, sex evolved on the planet a very long time ago. Long before humans were here. This means it is deep down in our brains. We don't choose when to breathe, right? -----signature----- ROTS: Ebert & Roeper: TWO THUMBS UP! A.O. Scott (New York Times) says it's better than Star Wars!
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TripleB Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/7/04 9:22pm Subject: RE: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded
	I think it was Ronald Reagan who said "I don't know if Life begins at conception or not, which is why this (abortion debate) should be so carefully treaded". In the same spirit, I don't know if it is biological or a choice. Does it really matter? Once you are 'in your relationship' does it? Is that something that could break up a gay relationship, if one of the members is "borne gay" and the other one "chooses to be gay"? I don't know how to look at it. If I look at Anne Heche/Ellen Degenerers or Julie Cypher/Melissa Etheridge, I guess you got two couples whom broke out because half of the team 'were not gay', so I don't know. -----signature----- 11/07/2006 is going to be a bad day for the Dem's, a great one for the gop because my political realities always pan out & because I will have seen Mel Gibson's THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST 100 times by then!!! VIVA OBI-WAN McCARTNEY!!!! Ep1&2<most EU
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Semblance Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 6/7/04 10:14pm Subject: RE: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded
	Most human traits fall along a spectrum (height, skin color, eye color, weight, etc.). There is a range of values instead of only a few, or two. There is no reason to think that "gayness/straightness" wouldn't fall along a spectrum as well. Seems reasonable enough to me. To demonstrate that it is a choice, I think one would have to rationally explain love. Good luck! -----signature----- ROTS: Ebert & Roeper: TWO THUMBS UP! A.O. Scott (New York Times) says it's better than Star Wars!
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DorkmanScott Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 6/8/04 12:24am Subject: RE: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded - Date Edited: 6/8/04 12:26am (1 edits total) Edited By: DorkmanScott
	I am gay. It was not my choice. In fact, I made every effort to try to choose heterosexuality until a couple years ago, when I realized I was just lying to myself and the rest of the world. Why WOULD I "choose" homosexuality? It's not generally accepted by society yet -- it's something I could be ridiculed for at the tamest level of opposition and literally murdered for at the most passionate. It makes it harder to find a partner. Assuming 10% of the population is gay, that means 1 in 10 guys. We don't wear signs, so how am I to know who is approachable? It's exponentially harder for us than it is for straight people to find a date, much less a relationship. It's not for the physical pleasure of the sexual act that I am the way I am -- I'm a virgin, for psychological and emotional as well as spiritual reasons, and believe in saving myself until marriage, or whatever the legal name for a permanent partnership commitment may be. To that end, I'd ask in this thread that people try to remember that homosexuality is not synonymous with anal intercourse. When discussing the "homosexual lifestyle", be aware that my lifestyle, and that of many other homosexuals, is probably different in very few ways from yours, none of them sexual in nature. The only choice involved in my sexuality is choosing to accept what I already am. Something I found interesting, my best friend is 15 years old and cannot fathom the idea of homosexuality being a choice. He's straight, but completely accepts me because he simply understands that it's who I am, no more or less, the same way I like sour candy and he can't stand the stuff. Neither of us is "wrong", we just have different tastes. I like to think that he's exemplary of the generations to come, who will understand and tolerate differences better than those that have preceded us, by being allowed to grow up viewing and mulling over those differences. Who we are hurts no one. What is it that makes people want to hurt us? M. Scott -----signature----- Yes We Did http://www.ryanvsdorkman.com Check out my blog: http://dorkmanscott.wordpress.com
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Branthoris Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 6/8/04 2:07am Subject: RE: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded
	I agree with TripleB. 'Marriage' has traditionally been between a man or a woman, so that word should not be used. However, gay couples should have the option of a civil partnership giving them every single legal benefit that married couples enjoy. However, I also think that this should be brought about through the normal legislative process, rather than by judicial vandalism as in Massachusetts. It's inconceivable that the provision of the Massachusetts Constitution concerned, when adopted, was understood to prevent 'discrimination' against gays, so such an interpretation of it is no more than the subjective policy preferences of the state judiciary.
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Guinastasia Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/8/04 7:34am Subject: RE: Revenge of the Return of Homosexuals are Gay Reloaded
	Well, some people are bisexual-which doesn't always mean being attracted equally to both sexes. Like say, Susie Q is attracted primarily to men, yet she also finds women attractive. Johnny B Good, on the other hand, prefers his own sex, although he has found himself sexually arroused by women on occassion. It's not always so black and white. Sexuality has a lot of grey shades. -----signature----- Founder of the Face Loran & Ton Phanan Appreciation Society Dark Lady of the JCC, currently retired Member of the Obi-Wan Kenobi Fan Club High Dominatrix of Flyboys, WJFC EUDF Captain, Retired Ravenclaw 0wns your sorry ass
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