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Author	Topic: Official 2004 US Elections Thread
Ender_Sai Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 7/7/04 11:37pm Subject: RE: Official 2004 US Elections Thread
	Care to bet that unlike Kerry and the Swift boat veterans, the Bush-Cheney campaign will not only make sure they will get PERMISSION for the excerpt of the Charlie Rose show to be used, but that they will be sure to get Tom Clancy's permission? Here's hoping to God that one of his conditions is that the neocons are all sacked from public office if Bush gets a second term. Then Bush can repair some of the damage they've caused the US prestige worldwide. E_S -----signature----- In this truth he knew himself to be. From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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Cyprusg Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 7/8/04 12:01am Subject: RE: Official 2004 US Elections Thread
	If the Buzz is to believed, people really seem to want Edwards over Kerry. I think many people view Edwards in a more favorable light but don't feel he's ready to be a president. Kerry and Edwards seem more like a team than any other candidates I've ever seen. Edwards overshadows Kerry in many ways, but Kerry has the experience and is the better leader, that seems to be the way people are viewing it. My own personal view is that Edwards brings a good balance to Kerry. They both have their strengths and weaknesses but together it all equals out. I don't think I've ever been this excited to vote. -----signature----- The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge
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Darth Mischievous Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 7/8/04 4:22am Subject: RE: Official 2004 US Elections Thread - Date Edited: 7/8/04 4:37am (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth Mischievous
	I think the biggest negative for Edwards is his trial lawyer status - these types are loathed by small businesses and by (most) medical types. Tort lawyers are the natural enemies of the medical profession. Now, I'm not saying Edwards isn't a patriot or anything like that, but I think his kind driven up substantially the costs of insurance and health care with his ilk. You ever watch those stupid commericals with the guys that get into those accidents and these sleazeball attorneys that are winning the lawsuit lottery? That's Edwards. -----signature----- "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give it to those who are not." --Thomas Jefferson
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Gonk Registered: Jul '98	Date Posted: 7/8/04 4:39am Subject: RE: Official 2004 US Elections Thread
	If the Buzz is to believed, people really seem to want Edwards over Kerry. I fail to see how this would effect any vote for the Democratic party. If they prefer Edwards over Kerry well fine -- he's STILL going to be VP. That's still votes in the bank. -----signature----- What shall we do to fill the empty spaces Where waves of hunger gnaw? Shall we set out upon this sea of faces In search of more and more and more?
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Darth Mischievous Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 7/8/04 4:51am Subject: RE: Official 2004 US Elections Thread
	Edwards brings a good balance to Kerry There is no 'balance' on this ticket. This is the most liberal ticket in decades (since McGovern, anyway), and I don't say that in a derogatory sense. Both Kerry and Edwards are more liberal than that bastion of liberalism Ted Kennedy himself. If Kerry wanted to 'balance' his ticket, he'd have picked a moderate. Kerry picked Edwards for his style not his substance. -----signature----- "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give it to those who are not." --Thomas Jefferson
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Ender_Sai Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 7/8/04 5:17am Subject: RE: Official 2004 US Elections Thread
	There's an interesting editorial in The Economist about the swing back to liberalism in America. They basically say that liberalism was trumped in the years after Bush was elected, and with 9/11, the instinct proved to be to rally around the flag and the President for the sake of unity. However, since then, the "blunders" - for lack of a better word - have cost this ideological position greatly and liberalism has fought back. Bookshops, they write, are full of Bush-bashing tomes; Michael Moore has become an icon to many on the left in America and it's all stuff NOT being capitalised on by John Kerry. E_S -----signature----- In this truth he knew himself to be. From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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Darth Mischievous Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 7/8/04 5:23am Subject: RE: Official 2004 US Elections Thread - Date Edited: 7/8/04 5:23am (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth Mischievous
	E_S, I don't know what the worldwide perception is but Michael Moore is absolutely loathed by mainstream Americans, even left-leaning ones. -----signature----- "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give it to those who are not." --Thomas Jefferson
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Vaderize03 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 7/8/04 5:40am Subject: RE: Official 2004 US Elections Thread
	which is pretty much going to highlight that the "big-government liberal" depiction by Bush is probably accurate. I think the president should be very, very careful about accusing John Kerry of being a "big spending liberal". Mr. Bush has overseen some tremendous increases in government size and spending, not to mention entitlements with the Medicare prescription drug benefit. On top of this, there is defense spending (needed currenly), and a tax cut. If he calls Kerry a "tax-hiking, big-spending liberal", my answer (if I were him), would be: "Mr. President, there is only one thing worse than tax and spend, and it's cut tax and spend". No, if Bush is going to beat the drum, it's going to be on terrorism, Iraq, and possibly guns/gay marriage. Suprisingly, abortion has not been as big of an issue this election. Also, KnightWriter brings up a good point. To call Kerry a "liberal out of touch with the mainstream" is fairly erroneous considering that he is running even with Bush. So, there must be a lot more liberals out there than people think . Peace, V-03 -----signature----- "Bring your pretty face to my axe....." B-O-H-I-C-A !! (that was funny DM!) "I'm what Willis was talking about"
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Ender_Sai Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 7/8/04 5:48am Subject: RE: Official 2004 US Elections Thread
	E_S, I don't know what the worldwide perception is but Michael Moore is absolutely loathed by mainstream Americans, even left-leaning ones. yes, I can see that by his abysmal box office and book sales figures... ES -----signature----- In this truth he knew himself to be. From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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sellars1996 Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 7/8/04 5:59am Subject: RE: Official 2004 US Elections Thread - Date Edited: 7/8/04 6:03am (1 edits total) Edited By: sellars1996
	Tort reform is going to be an issue now. I never thought this would occur. Great stuff for lawyers and doctors, but substantive discussions about this sort of thing tend to put everyone else to sleep. So we resort to name calling and we have even sillier ads talking about frivolous lawsuits and shysters running honest doctors out of business, and lawyers run ads emphasizing the pain and suffering of orphans, pregnant women, and little old ladies maligned by big corporations. Malpractice insurance is prohibitively high, but this issue does not have the same sort of sex appeal as Iraq or the economy. It will be interesting to see how this will be brought up in health care discussions ... finally, something pushed to the back burner will be addressed. It will be interesting to see how medical groups react to Kerry/Edwards in that regard. Did anyone see Bush's dismissal of Edwards over Cheney, saying Cheney was qualified to be president? The effort to paint Edwards as a left wing Quayle has begun ... fascinating how inconsistent we all are. Quayle had more experience than Edwards, but liberals vilified Quayle as too inexperienced. Quayle had a similar amount of experience as JFK did when he ran for president in 1960. But we in the GOP rallied around W, who had considerably less experience than Quayle. Now we are making this an issue for Edwards. I guess our stances depend upon whatever is expedient politically at the time. -----signature----- Every married father's wish ... to live as well as his wife and children. The kindest words ever said about a lawyer: well, at least he didn't run for Congress.
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Vaderize03 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 7/8/04 7:31am Subject: RE: Official 2004 US Elections Thread
	George Will's comment, pointed out by KW, superb. If Kerry is "so liberal", then there must be an awful lot of liberals in the US, whic pretty much negates the claim that he is out of touch with "mainstream" America. There is no "mainstream" America-there is the Left and the Right. Not all that much exists outside of the polarization, unfortunately. Peace, V-03 -----signature----- "Bring your pretty face to my axe....." B-O-H-I-C-A !! (that was funny DM!) "I'm what Willis was talking about"
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Gonk Registered: Jul '98	Date Posted: 7/8/04 7:44am Subject: RE: Official 2004 US Elections Thread
	yes, I can see that by his abysmal box office and book sales figures... Well, he's not LOATHED, but DM does have a point. Few liberals totally stand by the guy. See on the left, we tend to try and distance ourselves from OUR radicals. -----signature----- What shall we do to fill the empty spaces Where waves of hunger gnaw? Shall we set out upon this sea of faces In search of more and more and more?
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Obi-Wan McCartney Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/8/04 8:13am Subject: RE: Official 2004 US Elections Thread
	Well, I really do see Moore as a Rush Limbaugh of the left. And no, that isn't hypocrisy, that previous article (Jonah Goldberg?) was full of crap. Not every liberal thinks Rush is just worthless and evil, I happen to believe he is a smart man whose values are some ways very different than mine, and one whose perspective is TOTALLY different. However, Michael Moore is someone whose values are more similar to mine and whose perspective is more similar. Both are smart and effective communicators, and both have the distinction of irritating the crap out of those that disagree with them. DM, do those magazine standards really mean so much to you? It's based on their VOTING record, which you must know is a totally different thing than being President. John Kerry will govern as a moderate, do you really see someone like Kerry getting the reigns and then trying to pull what Clinton pulled when he got elected? Come off it, President Kerry will rule as a moderate despite his liberal voting record in the Senate. Now, say if Howard Dean or say Ralph Nader got elected, I could that as a mandate for sweeping reform, but a Kerry Presidency is a return to normalcy. -----signature----- God Bless J-Rod's Wife! Obi-Wan McCartney: Model Forum Member since 1999! America's Beatles are far better than England's precious Rolling Stones
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DeathStar1977 Registered: Jan '03	Date Posted: 7/8/04 8:17am Subject: RE: Official 2004 US Elections Thread
	QGM Left that one wide open... Hey, at least you have a sense of humor about it. Sellars Quayle had a similar amount of experience as JFK did when he ran for president in 1960. Dan Quayle was no Jack Kennedy! I couldn't resist...tell the truth Sellars, were you looking at your watch to see how long it would take for me to post this. I guess our stances depend upon whatever is expedient politically at the time. Indeed. DM Both Kerry and Edwards are more liberal than that bastion of liberalism Ted Kennedy himself. Which I consider a compliment. As I have said, my goal in life is to be called a 'Massachussettes liberal'. I just don't think my wife would be willing to move up north just for that reason. V03 - Well said, what more can I say? More general thoughts... Regarding the VP pick, I don't think its a case of 'buyer's remorse'. Believe it or not, many Democrats like and respect Kerry a lot. He has a very statesmenesque quality and is very well versed in both foreign and domestic policy. Many admire him as someone who has been there for us, and will continue to do so, and as someone who will reach across the aisle without abandoning Democratic principles. The VP pick itself isn't necessarily a 'stand alone' pick. Bush picked Cheney to give him more (and I'm sick of hearing this word on TV) gravitas. Kerry doesn't need gravitas, he's got em. Kerry needed someone to provide a spark, someone who could 'sell the ticket', and someone who provided a variation in life experience. Say what you will about his 'experience' (although Sellars hit it dead on) Edwards is that guy. And I am very happy about this pick.
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Obi-Wan McCartney Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/8/04 8:29am Subject: RE: Official 2004 US Elections Thread - Date Edited: 7/8/04 8:57am (2 edits total) Edited By: Vaderize03
	"I couldn't resist...tell the truth Sellars, were you looking at your watch to see how long it would take for me to post this." -Heh heh, yeah, the caption in one of books I read about that election said "Don't worry Mr. President, it will all be over soon." Sellars, I agree, I think everyone agrees about the hypocrisy. Same thing when Shwartzy was running for Gov. and the left sandbagged him over sexual abuse stuff. (Why is it the GOP is always involved in sexual abuse while the Dems are just involved in sex? ) I mean, how could Dubya even make that comment, he and Edwards had the same amount of political experience, and Edwards is actually a successful self-made man, which is more than can be said for Bush. -----signature----- God Bless J-Rod's Wife! Obi-Wan McCartney: Model Forum Member since 1999! America's Beatles are far better than England's precious Rolling Stones
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