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Author	Topic: Official 2004 US Elections Thread
JediSmuggler Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 7/6/04 1:34pm Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	Obi-Wan McCartney I notice you didn't discuss New Jersey. That was a CLEAR disregard for the rules because the Democrats were afraid they would LOSE an election. Now, let's be clear here about Florida. The media did their recounts. Bush still won the media recounts. And the Florida Supreme Court's rulings were vacated (their first one), and the second was knocked down 7-2 on its constitutionality, with a 5-4 split on the remedy for the bad ruling. The Republicans were trying to follow the rules. There are documented instances of the Democrats NOT doing so - and their hardball included throwing out military votes. Florida law also said "felons lose the right to vote." Are you saying that the State of Florida should not have made an effort to enforce that law? Or is this again a situation like New Jersey, where the law got in the way of the Democrats winning an election? -----signature----- The military-industrial complex has kept America strong and safe.
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ShaneP Title: Lucasfilm Projects Gremlin(Manager ) Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 7/6/04 1:39pm Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney - Date Edited: 7/6/04 1:47pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ShaneP
	OWM In Florida, hundreds or thousands of people who were LEGALLY ENTITLED to vote were denied their voice. Yeah, including those overseas ballots, which you always neglect to mention. I wonder why? EDIT people, as much as we sometimes like to think otherwise, are primarily social creatures and products of their culture, not free-thinking rational individuals. Ehhh.....not always. Many times, yes. Politics is full of that. That's why markets are better. -----signature----- Keep Your Words Sweet. You May Have To Eat Them.
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Obi-Wan McCartney Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/6/04 1:58pm Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	Whoa, Smuggler, Shane, I think you missed my point. First, I have no idea what you are talking about regarding New Jersey, and I didn't bring up Florida to continue debating how illegitemate Bush is, in fact, I didn't bring it up at all, you did. As far as my actual point today is concerned, Smuggler, you sort of helped make my point. Florida was just following the laws about felons votes, right? So why do you condemn the Demcrats (and again, not the GOP who do the same thing in every county in every state in America) for also enforcing ballot entry laws? Furthermore, in Florida the process was abused, hundreds or thousands of people who were either NOT felons OR felons who earned back their right to vote, so they incorrectly kept people off the ballot. Shane, whatever evidence of Democratic fowl play in 2000 only enhances my point, that in 2000 there was evidence of wrongdoing regarding people's right to vote. In this case regarding Nader, no evidence of wrongdoing has been shown. In addition, Smuggler attacks the Dems for this "technical" stuff keeping Nader off the ballot and then tries to compare it to Florida. My point was this: In Florida, there was clear and convincing evidence of wrongdoing, I guess on both sides. Here, there hasn't been any evidence that legitemate signatures were discounted. Heck, that's the whole point of this process, to make sure ONLY legitamte sigatures are counted. And again, BOTH sides do this, its just a normal and routine function of the election process, coupled with the fact that no evidence of mistake has been demostrated, I have no idea what the problem is. -----signature----- God Bless J-Rod's Wife! Obi-Wan McCartney: Model Forum Member since 1999! America's Beatles are far better than England's precious Rolling Stones
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ShaneP Title: Lucasfilm Projects Gremlin(Manager ) Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 7/6/04 2:17pm Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney - Date Edited: 7/6/04 2:24pm (2 edits total) Edited By: ShaneP
	Shane, whatever evidence of Democratic fowl play in 2000 only enhances my point, that in 2000 there was evidence of wrongdoing regarding people's right to vote. Oh, I agree with that. That's why we need to break the political-corporate oligarchy that dominates American politics. -----signature----- Keep Your Words Sweet. You May Have To Eat Them.
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JediSmuggler Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 7/6/04 2:18pm Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	Obi-Wan McCartney New Jersey? Have you forgotten about the "switch" of Lautenberg for Torricelli AFTER the deadline? There was a huge stink about it because Torricelli was well on the way to losing the election. The only reason the Demcorats kept the seat was because they illegally engineered a switch. It was [i]blatantly[/i[ in disregard for the election laws of the state of New Jersey. It probably is a more valid case in point than Florida for my side of the aisle (albeit the Supreme Court of Florida also attempted to rewrite the law on its own, much as the NJ Supreme Court did). -----signature----- The military-industrial complex has kept America strong and safe.
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Obi-Wan McCartney Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/6/04 2:20pm Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	Well, what can I say, even if the Democrats were wrong in NJ (I take it the NJ Supreme Court said they were not?), it has no bearing on Nader. -----signature----- God Bless J-Rod's Wife! Obi-Wan McCartney: Model Forum Member since 1999! America's Beatles are far better than England's precious Rolling Stones
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ShaneP Title: Lucasfilm Projects Gremlin(Manager ) Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 7/6/04 2:23pm Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	BTW, Ralph Nader is on Sean Hannity right now talking about the evils of corporate capitalism versus real free markets. Oh wait, now he's talking about minumum wage.....and a "living wage". Ohhh.........now he's talking about universal health care...single payer.....ugghh. Now corporate welfare.... Yayy! He finally schooled Hannity(now if someone would just mention it to Rush) about what socialism means, the ownership of production. They throw that term around too much without knowing what the heck it even means. -----signature----- Keep Your Words Sweet. You May Have To Eat Them.
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KnightWriter Title: Administrator Emeritus Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 7/6/04 2:25pm Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	I agree, OWM. Regardless of what happened in New Jersey, it has relevance only in terms of party hypocrisy. The bottom line is that Nader didn't have enough legitimate signatures here and was therefore removed from the ballot. If a nonpartisan group had blown the whistle, would anyone care about the politics of it? -----signature----- Opposing Scrooge Economics since 2009
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ShaneP Title: Lucasfilm Projects Gremlin(Manager ) Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 7/6/04 2:27pm Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney - Date Edited: 7/6/04 2:30pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ShaneP
	It's hard to find a non-partisan whistle when the political culture is owned by a duopoly. You know, for all the leftist moaning about fear of monopoly power in corporate politics, they sure engage in double-speak and hypocrisy when it comes to the collusion of the two-parties. -----signature----- Keep Your Words Sweet. You May Have To Eat Them.
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Joe1138 Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 7/6/04 2:29pm Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	Given that I could technically be considered part of the hispanic vote, I find it rather flattering. Hispanics tend to be more liberal than conservative (at least here in Arizona), and the number of hispanics in Arizona continues to increase. I'm hispanic and I didn't find your comment racist in anyway; it's the truth even here in ultra conservative Orange County. I do know, however, that many people I've talked to (both friends and family members, many of them hispanic) are showing a surprising amount of interest in this election and have registered and will be voting for the first time in their lives come November. -----signature----- "Take him to Detroit!"
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Obi-Zahn Kenobi Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/6/04 2:44pm Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney - Date Edited: 7/6/04 2:48pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Obi-Zahn Kenobi
	Because it's a tremendous potential bloc of voters in this state that tends to stay home (regardless of the election). If a large number of hispanic voters make it to the ballot box, Arizona will swing to Kerry. There's simply no doubt about it. It's highly uncertain otherwise. So Hispanics are all liberals who bloc vote Democrat? Given that I could technically be considered part of the hispanic vote, I find it rather flattering. Hispanics tend to be more liberal than conservative (at least here in Arizona), and the number of hispanics in Arizona continues to increase. You may find it flattering to be pandered to because you are Hispanic, but if someone tried to get my vote because I was some ethnicity, then I would think he was stupid. It may be dumb, but it's also part of life. A lot of politics is "dumb", but that doesn't make it any less important. A lot of life is dumb. The Hispanic vote issue is dumb, and it does make it less important then other issues. But the fact still remains that you're trying to get the vote from a bunch of people based on their ethnicity. I find that to be rather racist. Also, this is about ethnicity, rather than race. You can be part of an ethnicity without being part of a specific race. I know this. There are only three races: Caucasian, Negroid, and Mongoloid. But what do you want me to call discrimination against Hispanics? Ethnicism? I'm hispanic and I didn't find your comment racist in anyway; it's the truth even here in ultra conservative Orange County. I do know, however, that many people I've talked to (both friends and family members, many of them hispanic) are showing a surprising amount of interest in this election and have registered and will be voting for the first time in their lives come November. I didn't find his comment racist in intent. I just find it racist that people are trying to get a group of people's vote based on their race. Why? Because it assumes stereotypes about them. Let me set up this scenario: I want people from Ecuador vote for me. People from Ecuador are against school vouchers. I know, I won't support school vouchers! What's wrong with that? It assumes the stereotype that people from Ecuador are against school vouchers. When you pander to groups of people based on ethnicity, you're being racist. That's my opinion. -----signature----- "Perhaps Darth Guy will breed some sort of albino shouting gorilla." - Master_Jacen
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KnightWriter Title: Administrator Emeritus Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 7/6/04 2:52pm Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	So Hispanics are all liberals who bloc vote Democrat? No, it's just something that's generally true. Not always, of course, and there are plenty of hispanics who vote Republican or conservative. A lot of life is dumb. The Hispanic vote issue is dumb, and it does make it less important then other issues. But the fact still remains that you're trying to get the vote from a bunch of people based on their ethnicity. I find that to be rather racist. I don't think it's necessarily trying to get votes based on people's ethnicity. It's just an observation that hispanics tend to lean a certain way politically, and also that hispanics often don't vote. Therefore, it makes sense to target a specific bloc of people by way of certain issues that may get them to the ballot box. At the moment, immigration is a hot button issue in Arizona, and hispanics in general favor a more liberal approach to it. Kerry was just here, pushing for a different approach to illegal immigration, which earned him some respect from hispanic voters. Different groups have different key issues, and only a fool would ignore them. -----signature----- Opposing Scrooge Economics since 2009
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Obi-Zahn Kenobi Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/6/04 2:54pm Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	I don't think it's necessarily trying to get votes based on people's ethnicity. It's just an observation that hispanics tend to lean a certain way politically, and also that hispanics often don't vote. Therefore, it makes sense to target a specific bloc of people by way of certain issues that may get them to the ballot box. At the moment, immigration is a hot button issue in Arizona, and hispanics in general favor a more liberal approach to it. Kerry was just here, pushing for a different approach to illegal immigration, which earned him some respect from hispanic voters. But my point is that you are stereotyping groups of people. It may be effective to a degree, but you are still stereotyping. -----signature----- "Perhaps Darth Guy will breed some sort of albino shouting gorilla." - Master_Jacen
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Madriver Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 7/6/04 2:56pm Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	John Kerry as seen here "I don't like abortion. I believe life does begin at conception. But I can't take my Catholic belief, my article of faith, and legislate it on a Protestant or a Jew or an atheist ... who doesn't share it. We have separation of church and state in the United States of America." I'm not pro-life myself, but doesn't the highlighted part above mean that abortion is murder to him? Doesn't a pro-lifer believe that abortion is the same as killing your 1 year old infant because you don't want him anymore? If Kerry does believe that life begins at conception then aren't those "children" guaranteed the same inalienable rights that born children receive? Will this quote resurface and hurt Kerry? (it appeared on Drudge over the weekend but died quickly)
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KnightWriter Title: Administrator Emeritus Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 7/6/04 3:03pm Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney - Date Edited: 7/6/04 3:03pm (1 edits total) Edited By: KnightWriter
	But my point is that you are stereotyping groups of people. It may be effective to a degree, but you are still stereotyping. I'm referring to general trends and history, both of which are undeniable. Should these things be ignored? Also, I've pointed out that different groups (and states) have different key issues. Do you disagree? -----signature----- Opposing Scrooge Economics since 2009
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