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Author	Topic: Official 2004 US Elections Thread
Mr44 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/7/04 8:21am Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	-----signature----- When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise He has started to think and is therefore dangerous... -- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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Obi-Wan McCartney Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/7/04 8:28am Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney - Date Edited: 7/7/04 8:38am (1 edits total) Edited By: Obi-Wan McCartney
	Smuggler, that lawsuit will go nowhere. There is no way to prove that Edwards colluded with the other attorney to give money in the lower employees name. If you think about it, it is highly highly unlikely Edwards had any knowledge at all. Besides, even were he found guilty (impossible because given the facts I'm sure he's innocent and its impossible to prove), so what? Edwards gets a fine? Big deal. Personally, considering that the GOP is conceding they expect to go down in the tank (they do this every time, its like a pre-emption to downplay their losses, if they tank they can say "see, we expected this, no big deal," and if they don't tank as much or stay even, they can say "WOW! Look how awesome we are to be still doing this well!"), if they are right, Bush is going to have to have something up his sleave to get it back. The pundits have slowly begun changing their tune. They still have no idea who will win, but now the consensus is that it won't be as close as people think, that in the end one candidate will pull ahead. So I guess you have to give TripleB credit there, he has been saying that all along, albeit only for one candidate. However, I can't believe Trip is tripping hard enough to cling to his 46 state prediction! (Although I see he's softened it back to high 30's range too.) Hey, and anyone see Rush Limbaugh's website yesterday? It had a picture of Kerry and Edwards with the caption "This says it all." The picture had Edwards with his right hand up in the air waiving, completely obscuring John Kerry's face in the picture. -----signature----- God Bless J-Rod's Wife! Obi-Wan McCartney: Model Forum Member since 1999! America's Beatles are far better than England's precious Rolling Stones
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JediSmuggler Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 7/7/04 9:14am Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	Obi-Wan McCartney Right. Sure. If a attern of this is found in multiple law practices, then I'm willing ot bet that it could be a huge problem for Kerry/Edwards. I've perused some of the records on donations to Edwards at opensecrets.org - there is, among other donations, one of $1,000 that is from someone who is unemployed. I've seen a couple of sizable donations from homemakers as well. -----signature----- The military-industrial complex has kept America strong and safe.
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Obi-Wan McCartney Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/7/04 9:43am Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	Trust me, unless there is a wealth of corruption I don't know about, Edwards is in the clear on this one. Like I said, it will be impossible to prove that Edwards had the requisite collusion in those donations, Edwards is a brilliant attorney and I don't think he would commit such a stupid and obvious breach of law for a measly grand. Second, even if the charges prove true, so what? It's not like Edwards will go to jail or even be forced off the ticket, at most, assuming they overcome an enormous burden of somehow getting this to court and decided before the election (good luck), what's the punishment? A fine? So what? Remember, they tried to get Wes Clarke on this kind of stuff too, and he was actually sort of guilty, albiet he broke the rules because of his inexperience so nothing even happened there. -----signature----- God Bless J-Rod's Wife! Obi-Wan McCartney: Model Forum Member since 1999! America's Beatles are far better than England's precious Rolling Stones
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Mr44 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/7/04 9:47am Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	Second, even if the charges prove true, so what? Well, Edwards did go hunting with the head of the law firm that made the donation... No, of course I am joking...But it is interesting that you would make such a statement... -----signature----- When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise He has started to think and is therefore dangerous... -- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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JediSmuggler Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 7/7/04 9:52am Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	Obi-Wan McCartney "Sleazy trial lawyer" ads will NOT help Kerry/Edwards. If a pattern of questionable donations from law offices emerges, I think that not only will Bush-Cheney `04 be dropping the hammer in FEC complaints, but that it will be used in ads as well. Just the appearance of a suspicious pattern could make the ads stick. -----signature----- The military-industrial complex has kept America strong and safe.
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Crix-Madine Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 7/7/04 9:56am Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	Edwards is swinging a lot of people towards the Kerry camp. I personally know several people who were not huge on Kerry but will now be voting for him because Edwards has joined the ticket. I think it's something that we're going to see all over the country and it's having a much bigger impact then either side expected, and only in the first couple days. -----signature----- The will is everything. If you make yourself more than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal, you become something else entirely. Are you ready to begin?
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Vaderize03 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 7/7/04 10:15am Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	Jedismuggler, that depends on who you talk to . And I'm all for tort reform; while I think John Kerry made a wise choice politically with John Edwards, as a physician, I'm not thrilled with how he made his fortune. Peace, V-03 -----signature----- "Bring your pretty face to my axe....." B-O-H-I-C-A !! (that was funny DM!) "I'm what Willis was talking about"
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Obi-Wan McCartney Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/7/04 10:23am Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	Well SURE Smuggler, you want to start slinging mud then certainly some of it could stain Edwards suit. However, if you are talking about something that is actually illegal that will scream "SCANDAL," you won't get it. I mean, it's not even as serious as Bush's DUI charge. Furthermore, no one really cares about piddly little campaign finance violations that can't be proven, heck, Clinton was probably guilty of violating at least the spirit of a dozen campaign finance laws, no one cared. -----signature----- God Bless J-Rod's Wife! Obi-Wan McCartney: Model Forum Member since 1999! America's Beatles are far better than England's precious Rolling Stones
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dizfactor Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 7/7/04 10:30am Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	Just the appearance of a suspicious pattern could make the ads stick. only with people who already hate Kerry/Edwards. it's like Whitewater. whatever you thought of the allegations, no one cared outside the lunatic right. -----signature----- "Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century." Julian Dibbell "You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat." Gryph
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Mr44 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/7/04 10:42am Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney - Date Edited: 7/7/04 10:43am (1 edits total) Edited By: Mr44
	Is that anything like the vague accusations of "financial ties" between bin Laden and the current adminsitration? Of course, what label applies to the person who is pushing that? Fanatical comes to my mind, but then what do I know? I suppose that is what politics represents, a struggle over perception and a vague battle over attitudes.. I hope the upcoming debates at least focus in on the issues, but I fear that may be wishful thinking... -----signature----- When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise He has started to think and is therefore dangerous... -- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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JediSmuggler Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 7/7/04 11:02am Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	Obi-Wan McCartney Oh, so you essentially endorse the double-standard that makes a 25-year-old DUI a major scandal, but recent campaign finance violations are no big deal? Tab Turner is not the only one: Dick Morris has cited others. Morris turned Clinton aroiund to an easy re-eelction in 1996. Yeah, Edwards is generating some positive press and shoring Kerry up on the anti-corporate left. But there are negatives, too. The questionable donations are one. And the doctors who pack up and leave certain states due to medical malpractice insurance premiums going up, despite having NEVER been sued will form another point of attack. Seriously, how do you expect Kerry/Edwards `04 to defend situations where doctors pay more in malpractice insurance than they are getting in take-home pay? The trial lawyers could become to the Democrats what the religious right is to the GOP - part of the party's base voters, but one that can become a very big liability among the middle-of-the-road voters if they are seen as getting too powerful or if they mouth off too much. So far, Kerry still seems to be holding even with Bush. And I am not convinced that these donations will not blow up in the face of Kerry-Edwards `04. -----signature----- The military-industrial complex has kept America strong and safe.
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Obi-Wan McCartney Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/7/04 11:13am Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney - Date Edited: 7/7/04 11:18am (1 edits total) Edited By: Obi-Wan McCartney
	Come on, Smuggler, don't be so naive. I'm talking about reality here, not right v. wrong. The same goes for you too Mr. 44, since I KNEW you would throw this one back in my face. I'll agree with your point, but most people don't even know about the Saudi connections which are vast, true, and involve millions of dollars and influence. Smuggler is talking about making contributions in the range of a thousand dollars, the allegations cannot be proven, and even if they are the punishment is mild. Bush and the Saudis, like I said, involved much more. In addition, if THOSE wild accusations are proven to be of substance, Bush is in line for a swift impeachment. (I think I need to figure out a way to put different hats on so people know when I am speaking as a liberal democratic supporter v. a somewhat more objective standard). Smuggler, again, I wasn't necessarily trying to defend Edwards for the sake of my own politics, but I simply said that Bush's DUI charge is a far more serious offense than Edwards alleged and unprovable campaign finance violation, because LEGALLY one is a more serious charge. Bush could have killed someone, and even though he didn't he was still facing jail time. Neither applies with Edwards. I'm not trying to judge the morality or ethics of it, just the reality. Personaly, I don't think Edwards did it, but even if he did, it doesn't make much difference. It's almost like arguing over an unpaid parking ticket. It's not even as serious a crime as Clinton's alleged perjury. EDIT: For the sake of full disclosure, reading that Morris article (yeah, Morris knows all about violating campaign finance laws), I remembered an account my old girlfriend told me about her law office and Edwards, that indeed one of the partners encouraged a law clerk to give money that would be reimbursed by the attorney. -----signature----- God Bless J-Rod's Wife! Obi-Wan McCartney: Model Forum Member since 1999! America's Beatles are far better than England's precious Rolling Stones
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JediSmuggler Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 7/7/04 11:56am Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	I think Andrew Sullivan's comments on Kerry's annoucnement are quite telling. Quite frankly, if anyone is acting naive, it's the Kerry campaign. He's pretty embracing the Michael Moore approach when it comes to the war. This is dangerous. While Michael Moore's film might gross $60-$70 million, that's maybe 9 million tickets sold. 10 million if you count matinees. And his current antics now (urging South Korea and Japan NOT to support us in Iraq while he is overseas) are very close to the line of acceptable disagreement. I have no problems with expressing free speech, but there are ways of doing it that are proper, and there are ways that are improper. Kerry has a lot of criticism, but he's not offering alternatives. Well, he DID seem to start getting sepcific on health care, but that seems to be more of a big-government solution, which is pretty much going to highlight that the "big-government liberal" depiction by Bush is probably accurate. In essence, Kerry is going to run as a Dukakis-style liberal. He also has a trial lawyer as his #2. That's not going to work out over the long haul. -----signature----- The military-industrial complex has kept America strong and safe.
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Madriver Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 7/7/04 11:59am Subject: RE: It's Unofficially Official: Kerry/Edwards v. Bush/Cheney
	Does anyone think that there will be a "surprise" at the Republican convention? That Cheney will withdraw for health reasons and Guiliani or McCain will join the Bush ticket? (or even Powell?)
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