Author Topic: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
DeathStar1977  3368 posts
Registered: Jan '03
7850_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 12/22/04 2:44pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
Excellent post once again Sellars...I swear, if I ever vote Republican, by far the best possibility would be a Sellars/Mr44 ticket.

IMO this is another example of the media trying to stir up trouble by presenting the extremes (Pat Buchanen, etc.) and acting as if they are the representation of most Americans. I believe that most Americans are represented in the post by Sellars...who happens to be a Texas Christian Republican...and this is coming from a Northeastern Jewish Democrat. tongue happy

And J-Rod, I used to be cool. Now I'm just a family man who looks stupid in Elvis shades...although I'm fairly certain I always looked stupid in Elvis shades.

 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Jediflyer  7235 posts
Registered: Dec '01
6475_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 12/22/04 3:28pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
This is a great editorial by Matt Yglesias:


"There's one group of people who get bullied all the time, and that's Christians," Pastor Patrick Wooden told the Los Angeles Times on December 17. "I know what it is like to be bullied. It is apartheid in reverse -- the majority is being bullied by the minority."

The proximate cause of his complaint is the campaign by Jews, secularists, and Jewish secularists to get people to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas."

Indeed, a similar dispute roiled South Africa following the passage of 1974's Afrikaans Medium Decree, which forced all schools to educate high-school students in the Afrikaans dialect, to the exclusion of native African tongues. Thus, rather than saying "Merry Christmas" in Bantu, black South African students had to say it in Afrikaans.

The analogy is rather better than even Wooden himself seems to realize. Apartheid already was the bullying of South Africa's black majority by the white minority.

The more you think about it, the closer the comparison seems to fit. Take the legal system. Christians, as we know, are marginalized in the American judiciary. Only seven of the nine Supreme Court justices are nominal Christians, and of the seven, just two -- Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas -- regularly approve of efforts to codify theological norms as legal ones. More shockingly, from the appointment of Louis Brandeis to the Supreme Court in 1916 through the resignation of Abe Fortas in 1969, there has been consistently one Jewish justice -- though Jews never even approached one-ninth of the U.S. population. After things were briefly restored to the proper all-Christian lineup during the Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, and Bush Senior years, Bill Clinton appointed two non-Christian justices, Steven Breyer and Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

More recently, the judicial system has further marginalized Christian belief by deeming it unconstitutional to place a replica of the Ten Commandments in an Alabama courthouse. This despite the fact that these Ten Commandments are not merely the basis of Christian (and, to be fair, Jewish) morality but also the foundation of our legal system. From where else could we have derived such legal principles as the prohibition on murder, the mandatory honoring of thy father and thy mother, and the well-known prohibition on coveting thy neighbor's wife (or his house, maidservant, manservant, ox, or ass)?

Black South Africans were similarly marginalized -- ineligible to serve as police, prosecutors, judges, or jurors, leading naturally to a discriminatory impact in the application of even racially neutral laws. In fact, blacks were not even allowed to vote, which is in many ways similar to how conservative Christian candidates for office in America often lose elections (though they do happen to control the presidency and both houses of Congress at the moment).

Of course, a few brave souls dare speak up against this anti-majoritarian repression. In South Africa, opposition to apartheid was led by both religious figures like Desmond Tutu and secular ones like Nelson Mandela. Similarly, Christian interests here in the United States are defended not only by clergymen like Pastor Wooden, but also by lay leaders like the Catholic League's William Donohue, who recently explained that Hollywood is "controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular."

My father, though he doesn't control Hollywood personally, is a secular Jew who's been known to work in the film industry, and he's often discussed with me the way he has managed to insert anti-Christian themes into his work. For example, in one of his films, Fearless, the non-Jewish Jeff Bridges was forced to portray a character named Max Klein with a son named Jonah. The similarities between such de-Christianification of the cinema and the comprehensive censorship laws enacted by the South African government in 1974 in order to prevent the news media from covering protests by anti-apartheid groups should be clear.

It is also well-known that many Jewish South Africans took the lead in campaigning against apartheid, though the country's Jewish community was a beneficiary of apartheid discrimination and the South African government often found itself aligned with Israel on international issues. Similarly, here in the United States, a few brave Jews like Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer have spoken out against the "absurd" and "relentless" campaign by "deracinated" Jews to "de-Christianize Christmas." Krauthammer, however, takes a soft line against these misguided souls, advocating "pity" rather than anger as the appropriate response.

This can hardly be judged sufficient. What should one feel besides anger when faced with an injustice as grave as America's systematic repression of Christians? Some liberal elites seem to feel that this is a laughing matter. But all it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing, and all people -- whether Christian or otherwise -- have a duty to fight against what Bill O'Reilly has aptly termed an "anti-Christmas jihad.


 

-----signature-----
As long as the differences and diversities of mankind exist, democracy must allow for compromise, for accommodation, and for the recognition of differences. -Eugene McCarthy
There are no dialogues, only intersecting monologues -Mark Twain
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Cheveyo  5495 posts
Registered: Oct '01
47802_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 12/22/04 3:54pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
Here are the reasons why I say Buchanan did not write the whole story. He writes:
"As usual, they are busy at work, going to court to get Nativity scenes expunged from public squares, demanding that statues of Mary, Joseph and the infant Jesus be removed from department stores and parades, checking vigilantly to see that any and all caroling at public schools is free of such outrages as "Silent Night." For people such as these, even Santa has become an intolerably divisive figure who must be purged from public life."
WHO is going to court to get Nativity scenes expunged from public squares?

Could he be referring to a woman in Florida who--with help from the Thomas More Law Center--sued the town of Bay Harbor Islands for not letting her display a Nativity scene beside already displayed Chanukah symbols?

She won the case, by the way, and has another case pending, wherein she has filed suit against the town for hanging Jewish symbols. the suit alleges that the display of any religious symbolism is unconstitutional. I guess the Nativity is not religious.
source

WHO is vigilantly checking to see that any and all caroling at public schools is free of such outrages as "Silent Night"?

According to every actual news report regarding the case in the limelight (see below), it was the school board that enacted a school policy A DECADE AGO that prohibited religious music in school-sponsored pageants and assemblies.

In literature it distributes to high schools, the New Jersey School Boards Association suggests schools adopt ``a policy that emphasizes the board's intent to use religious expressions, displays, etc., to instruct and enlighten rather than to advance any particular religious viewpoint.''

However, the decision about what to include on holiday music programs is largely left up to individual school districts, said association spokesman Frank Belluscio.

``The (district) policies are basically belief statements,'' he said. ``Most of them leave discretion to the flexibility of the schools. There's nothing to restrict a district from taking the approach South Orange is taking.''
source

WHO has stated Santa has become an intolerably divisive figure who must be purged from public life?

Can Pat give a reference? I couldn't find a single legitimate news source with a quick Google search. Perhaps someone else can?
Target stores have told the Salvation Army it may no longer station volunteers at store entrances, with their red kettles, and solicit charitable contributions for the poor. The 30-year tradition that reaped the Army $9 million a year has been terminated.

What's been terminated?
Did Target's participation amount to $9 million in revenue for the SA? Did Target single-handedly end the Salavation Army's 30-year tradition?

I see bell ringers all over theplace. If the SA drive is dead, someone should tell these people to put the bells away.

I am curious to see what Pat believes is a "consistent" policy, if Target's policy of allowing no solicitations outside it's doors unconditionally is something he finds discriminatory.
Now Macy's has stopped using the phrase "Merry Christmas" in all store advertising, replacing it with what Macy's calls the more inclusive "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays."

How terrible! Both of these phrases have been welcomed in our society for generations. Why is this an affront to Christianity? Would it also be an affront to Judaism for not saying Happy Chanukah? Would it also be an affront to Hindu for not acknowledging Diwali? Would it be an affront to Wicca for not acknoledging the Yule?

All those holidays for all those different people who likely enjoy shopping in their store. I think "Happy Holidays" fairly well sums it up and is the most accurate for this season.

Who disagrees with me?
In Denver, officials of the annual Parade of Lights refused to permit in the parade a float carrying the banner "Merry Christmas" with members of the Faith Bible Chapel congregation, who were to sing Christmas carols. Approved was a float sponsored by Two Souls, an American Indian group that considers homosexuality holy.
Recognizing that the "Parade of Lights" is not representative of any religion, the parade officials were within their rights to accept or deny any float based on content.

I cannot for the life of me find any information on any Native american group calling itself "Two Souls" on the net, but they could be a small group with no web affiliation. I'm willing to bet the don't consider homosexuality as holy... at least no more holy than heterosexuality.

All in all, Pat's editorial was exactly that... all opinion, little or no fact to base from.





 

-----signature-----
I am a Founding Father. Want to know more? Just ask.
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Cheveyo  5495 posts
Registered: Oct '01
47802_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 12/22/04 4:26pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas) - Date Edited: 12/22/04 4:31pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Cheveyo
Jediflyer: (quoting the editorial) "There's one group of people who get bullied all the time, and that's Christians," Pastor Patrick Wooden told the Los Angeles Times on December 17. "I know what it is like to be bullied. It is apartheid in reverse -- the majority is being bullied by the minority."

What is the nature of the bullying? Is it a group of people (in minority) saying, "Stop worshipping your God!! Stop practicing Christianity!!"? Or is it a group of people saying, "Hey, enough with cramming your holiday down our throats. You have your religion. Respect ours."?

The proximate cause of his complaint is the campaign by Jews, secularists, and Jewish secularists to get people to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas."

"...to get people"??? Is this suggesting that there is some phantom movement out there to get the people to say something other than Merry Christmas during the holidays? Or is it making a vague and enflamed charge against those who seek to have companies and government resources exclude any religious holiday.

I personally think it's funny that this guy is blaming the Jewish community... who ALSO celebrates their holiday during this time of year.

What should one feel besides anger when faced with an injustice as grave as America's systematic repression of Christians?

This is the type of nonsensical, riot-inciting hot air that I so despise in some people's rhetoric. Let's take a very close, personal look at what he just said.

SYSTEMATIC REPRESSION of CHRISTIANS.

Are Christians being denied their ability or choice to worship? No.
Are Christians being denied access to their religion? No.
Are Christians being denied any rights to freedom of speech and expression? No.

...Are Christians being told that their religious holidays most remain outside the secular government, on equal footing with all other religions in America? Yes.
...Are Christians being told that some people don't want to be indocterinated into their religious holiday everywhere they go throughout the month of December? Yes.

How does this affect ANYONE's right to individually say "Merry Christmas"? It doesn't.

In the words of the English farmer... "Help! Someone!! I'm being Repressed!!" (Monty Python reference)


 

-----signature-----
I am a Founding Father. Want to know more? Just ask.
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Jediflyer  7235 posts
Registered: Dec '01
6475_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 12/22/04 7:16pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
Cheveyo, come on, that was satire.

 

-----signature-----
As long as the differences and diversities of mankind exist, democracy must allow for compromise, for accommodation, and for the recognition of differences. -Eugene McCarthy
There are no dialogues, only intersecting monologues -Mark Twain
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Kimball_Kinnison  12524 posts
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 12/22/04 7:22pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
In the words of the English farmer... "Help! Someone!! I'm being Repressed!!" (Monty Python reference)

His name was Dennis. And he's not an old woman. He's thirty-seven!

tongue

Kimball Kinnison

 

-----signature-----
You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Cheveyo  5495 posts
Registered: Oct '01
47802_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 12/22/04 8:50pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas) - Date Edited: 12/22/04 8:53pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Cheveyo
JediFlyer: Cheveyo, come on, that was satire.

Try explaining that to Vezner. wink

KK:

laugh

 

-----signature-----
I am a Founding Father. Want to know more? Just ask.
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
ophelia  12063 posts
Title: Ex-Mod
Registered: Jun '02
50031_H640: Ophelia
Date Posted: 12/22/04 11:21pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
Cheveyo: FWIW, there is a tradition in many Native American cultures about "two spirit people," sometimes called berdaches (although that's not a Native American word) who are both male and female. Being a berdache or two-spirit person is not the same thing as "being gay"--it's sort of a third gender, and people who belong to it are considered especially blessed, because they have access to both male and female spiritual power. It may or may not be something "holy," depending on your definition of the word, but two-spirit people are thought to make especially good shamans, since they can tap into the full range of human spiritual energy.

Web info on this topic tends to be either low-content, high political rhetoric nonsense or incredibly dense and tedious anthropological and historical writing, but I did find this, which seems reasonably balanced between usefulness and brevity: The Native American Berdache. From the site:
    Two-Spirit People, or one called a 'Berdache', or even one of the 'third gender', are individuals not caterigorized as either gay or lesbian, transvestite or bisexual. Those who, in many Native American Cultures, who are respected and looked apon as people who are both male and female, making them more complete, more balanced than simply a man or a woman. Before those from Europe came from across the waters, and took over their land, these people were part of the 'norm', connected with the very heartbeat of the life force we are all part of. Even today, Berdaches are accepted in many American Indian societies and in other settings.
This is not some freaked-out New Age thing made up last Tuesday to annoy Christians, it's a real part of many Native American cultures. It's not easily classifiable as either a religious or a cultural belief, which makes sense, since Native American cultures tend not to divide the world into intellectual categories like that.

I have no idea what the actual story behind the parade issue is, but FWIW, two-spirit people do exist.

 

-----signature-----
In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps with your mom
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
ophelia  12063 posts
Title: Ex-Mod
Registered: Jun '02
50031_H640: Ophelia
Date Posted: 12/23/04 1:08am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas) - Date Edited: 12/23/04 1:11am (2 edits total) Edited By: ophelia
Ex post facto post: I went and did some digging on the subject, and found that, unlike every other "the sky is falling" report I've gotten from the conservative blogosphere, the Denver Parade of Lights story is true--or at least it's corroborated by the mainstream, supposedly non-partisan media, as well as by at least one liberal-leaning site, religioustolerance.org. We could debate for a long time about whether the sky is, in fact, falling, but the events as reported seem to be accurate.

General information: the Parade of Lights has been held in early December every year for the past 30 years. It's run by a private corporation, Denver's News9, and their official policy is not to allow any overt religious or political content in the parade. That's why they told the Faith Bible Chapel they couldn't participate.

The Two Spirit Society of Denver does exist, and they were in the parade. The group makes references to ancient beliefs about two-spirit people, but it's very much a modern group. They describe themselves as providing support and community outreach to Native American GBLT people and the Native American community in general.

But for the references to ancient Native American beliefs (beliefs which are incompatable with the label "GBLT," FWIW), they're indistinguishable from any other GBLT support group that focuses on a particular ethnic community. My perception is that their philosophical connection with original Native American beliefs is somewhat tenuous, and they do not present themselves as a religious group in any way. In fact, they acknowledge as much:
    This gender role was not based in sexual activities or practices, but rather the sacredness that comes from being different. This definition is not meant to replace cultural and traditional teachings, which speak to this role. It is intended to find common ground and to help educate in a contemporary context.
I.e., they know that "GBLT" and "two spirits" are not the same thing, and they're not pretending they are. They're basically just looking for ways to break it to grandma that they're gay.

Since the original two-spirits belief didn't fall squarely in the Western definition of "religious" to begin with, I can say without much doubt that this is not a religious group. But be that as it may.

About 1,000 annoyed Christians had their own parade an hour before the Parade of Lights, singing Christmas Carols and handing out hot chocolate. The response was such that the Parade of Lights' organizers have reportedly met with the pastor of the Faith Bible Chapel to discuss next year's "parade policy." A former U.S. Attorney has offered his services to the church group, should they choose to sue.

The "Merry Christmas sign is coming down" scandal is *not* related to Denver News9 or its parade. The sign is on Denver's City and County Building, and the announcement was made by Denver's mayor, who thought that the sign was outdated and ought to be replaced with a "Happy Holidays" sign next year. There was such a public outcry that he backpedaled fast, and said that a nativity scene in front of the City and County Building would be in place next year as well. (He was thinking of removing the "Merry Christmas" sign but leaving the nativity scene, or what?) FWIW, the mayor took a lot of heat over the Parade of Lights, too, which he had nothing to do with. One online blog columnist went so far as to publish his name and work address and urge people to send him lumps of coal. (So he could do what? Tell a private organization how to run its parade?)

There has been a great deal of teh drama over the Denver situation, including insistence from some quarters that Christians have become an oppressed minority. All I can say is that the Jews should have been so "oppressed" on the eve of Kristallnacht. The Nazis were actually worried that the massive devastation would provoke worldwide outrage, and were quite pleasantly surprised to find out that the international community pretty much rolled over, scratched its collective backside, and went back to sleep.

This isn't to say that News9 isn't being dumb. Why have a parade right next to Christmas and yet insist it's not about Christmas? I believe they are indeed trying to "have it both ways;" they want to take advantage of the Christmas crowds while conveniently ignoring Christmas itself. They're a private group and can do whatever they want, but I think it would make more sense for them to either allow religious floats or move their celebration to another month. Have it in July. There's nothing particularly religious about the 4th of July, and the weather is better.

Amid all the shrieking and rending of garments, and the gleeful snarkiness of mainstream press writers over having someone to poke fun at (which they do to whomever they can, "liberal media bias" accusations or no), there were a few refreshing voices of sanity. An individual called Zombyboy who has a blog called Resurrection Song basically told everyone involved to quit being idiots. (When a guy named Zombyboy who says he plans to spend Christmas glued to his Xbox games gives cogent reasons to show that you're being an idiot, it's really time to look at the IQ-meter.)

However, my favorite comments were from a columnist quoted by religioustolerance.org:
    Suggestion by Cal Thomas:
    In his "On the Right Side" column for 2004-DEC-15, Cal Thomas proposes a process of disengagement between Christians and secularists. This would minimize conflict between the two groups at Christmas time.

    He suggests that Christians:

    - Decline "...to participate in the orgy of consumption" at this time of year.
    - Follow Jesus' commands to " 'feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those in prison' and 'care for widows and orphans,' not to mention 'love your enemies' and 'pray for those who persecute you'."
    - Celebrate Christmas in their hearts, lives and relationships.

    He suggests that secularists:

    - Enjoy their holiday time, including Christmas, and name it anything they wish.
    - Display on public or private property whatever they wish, or nothing at all.
In case you're dying fir further information, here is some:

Thedenverchannel.com: Church Group Can't March In Holiday Parade

Thedenverchannel.com: Denver Mayor No Scrooge; 'Merry Christmas' Sign Stays

Insidedenver.com: Parade response buoys pastor (All teh fallout)

Frantic columnist who wants everyone to send coal to a guy who doesn't organize the parade she's mad about: Michelle Malkin

 

-----signature-----
In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps with your mom
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
im_posessed  620 posts
Registered: Nov '02
23525_Aayla Secura
Date Posted: 12/23/04 8:21am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
Personally, I celebrate Christmas in two ways. I celebrate it with my family as a cultural holiday - a time off from work etc. to spend with family, get together, give gifs, all that other fun stuff. I also celebrate it personally as a time of joy because of CHrist's birth (knowing that his birth was actually not in december, but still, it's good to remember it at some point, and this works)

because Christmas has become so cultural, I don't see what the problem is. No one tries to ban pink hearts on Valentine's day (celebrated originally by *gasp* the church to remember *shock and hooror* a religous saint) or St. Patrics day (insert similar comments)

 

-----signature-----
There is something inside all of us that drives us, so tell me, whats controling you?
The only people who have called me closed minded are those who refused to accept the possiblity that I could be right.
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Vezner  8450 posts
Registered: Dec '01
6519_Tycho Celchu
Date Posted: 12/23/04 8:27am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas) - Date Edited: 12/23/04 8:32am (1 edits total) Edited By: Vezner
Try explaining that to Vezner.

Any particular reason why you felt it necessary to bring me into your little conversation? Chev, I know you don't like me because of my beliefs but there's no reason be rude about it. Or were you trying to be complimentary with that statement? plain

 

-----signature-----
Say NO to socialism
Say NO to more government control of your life
Say NO to runaway government spending
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MQ2pk7kkm4&feature=player_profilepage
Vote NO to Obama in 2012 and NO to his congressional lackies in 2010
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Kast_Morben  1676 posts
Registered: Aug '01
23705_Clone Trooper
Date Posted: 12/23/04 8:32am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas) - Date Edited: 12/23/04 9:42am (2 edits total) Edited By: Kimball_Kinnison
Just a quick post to link an article by an American which appeared in yesterdays Daily Telegraph here in the UK, concerning this very subject.

Here

(You have to be registered to read it)

KK EDIT: Fixing the link. And my edit.

 

-----signature-----
Thanks to everyone who supported the bid
London 2012, here we come!
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
CitizenKane  856 posts
Registered: Aug '04
8160_Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 12/23/04 9:01am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas) - Date Edited: 12/23/04 9:40am (2 edits total) Edited By: Kimball_Kinnison
It's a shame, CK, that you seem so eager to attack that you know little of your victim. Allow me to show you some quotes of mine made in other threads:
Religious expression in schools by students individually or in small groups independent of school functions or curriculum is not an issue (at least it shouldn't be--those schools that may have taken that step are wrong).

(Responding to: "My sig is an intent to argue against those that seem to be intent on removing all Christian symbols or opinions from the public. The removal of Christmas Nativity scenes in Florida, yet the allowance of Jewish and Muslim symbols, is an example of this".)

If this is true, then the Florida official in charge missed the point. But whatever you choice to use as a defense of your sig, the fact remains that it is a statement akin to "poor me", which was what we were discussing.

And that is just two recent quotes. Please don't label me if you do not fully comprehend my position.


First of all, those were hardly attacks. There were questions probing into whether or not you would accpet and source as valid for this specific argument. Also, they are two questions for which you still have not given an answer.

Second, that first quote has 0 to do with the topic. The other one I find has little weight, since obviously it is case of clear discrimination that I don't think even FID would try to justify.



That's hardly audacious, CK. Unlike some, many of usask questions of the things handed to us. most of us understand that there is much more to any story, and that with just a couple misplaced facts a story can take on a whole new meaning.

Also, it should be noted that Buchanan is not a news journalist. This article was an editorial article, not a fact-based report. In such editorials, it is important to ask where the actual facts are.


The tone of your post definitely seemd you were calling Buchanan a liar or that he was intentionally misrepresenting things. BTW, I don't think you would ever do that to, say, a Frank Rich article. Would you?

But anywho, here are some other sources that you might (or might not) find reliable:

No Christmas Songs

New Jersey Ban

Commentary

Macy's is just plain dumb

EDIT:Fixing markup

KK EDIT: Fixing a link.


 

-----signature-----
CitizenKane
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
cal_silverstar  1945 posts
Registered: Jul '02
41079_Noghri
Date Posted: 12/23/04 9:38am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas) - Date Edited: 12/23/04 9:41am (1 edits total) Edited By: cal_silverstar
Here's an excellent commentary on why the religious and the secular should stop bickering from one of my favorite columnists, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach:

An abominable Christmas: How religious, secular ruined holiday spirit

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 23, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com


The Christmas holiday period is nearly over, and not a moment too soon. It's a pretty sad situation when you can't wait for the holiday season to end, but this year in America it was depressing and grotesque.

Wasn't the holiday season always about people coming together? Families having Christmas dinner, ordinary citizens joining together for worthy causes? Indeed, because I spent 11 years living far away in Europe, I have come to so cherish American unity. I see this country as my extended family.

But in my 38 years, I cannot recall a single example of where December turned into a civil war in which religious and secular Americans assailed each other so mercilessly and showed each other so much hatred. And in the end, was it all worth it? For a couple of "Merry Christmas" signs in department stores and the singing of "Jingle bells" in high schools?

Are the secularists happy that they made such a big deal of purging the Christian religious dimension of the holidays so thoroughly, as if a Nativity scene in front of a city hall was going to kill them? And are the religious now content that they succeeded in getting Hallmark to print a few more cards that read "Merry Christmas" rather "Happy Holidays," at the expense of national unity that this country so badly needs and which decent people everywhere so strongly desire?

In the end, both groups failed. This year's December was neither a "Happy Holiday" not a "Merry Christmas." Cards reading "Drop Dead" and being given out from one side to the other might have been more appropriate.


During the presidential election, it was OK for America to be divided. The strong issues that the election brought up tore the country in half and, to be honest, there was no way to avoid it. I confess my part in the division. On my radio show, and in numerous articles, I went after John Kerry and what I perceived to be his weak vision of America with gusto.

Sure, I realized that I was contributing to the disunity of America, but the stakes were just too high not to speak out and make a ruckus. Unity is super important, but there are things that are even more important, like the ultimate victory of good over evil, and the preservation of human life.

I believed John Kerry would not fight tyrants like Saddam Hussein the way that President Bush has, and that many innocent people would be brutalized by their governments as a result. I also believed Kerry would not see our commitment in Iraq through to its conclusion and, as a result, the terrorists would be emboldened and America would be less secure.

But once the election was over, it was essential to mend the torn fabric of America. Presidential elections are necessarily caustic and discordant. It's about two sides and two visions competing for the same prize. And while necessary, there is good reason that we hold these mega-elections once every four years. For the rest of the time, amidst our differences, we're meant to more or less get along. We are, after all, "one nation" – not only "under God," but "indivisible." This is especially true for a country that has so many external enemies and that is currently fighting wars on several fronts. National unity, though a moral imperative in its own right, is also essential for national security.

And here is the tragedy of this absolutely abominable December that has so sapped out the soul of America. Of the many unifying themes in a nation's life – patriotism, history, culture – religion, with its message of the brotherhood of humankind and our single source in the one God, ought to be the most unifying theme of all.

Yes, I know that not everybody is religious, and that a great many Americans are even hostile to religion. But even so, the 90 percent of Americans who tell pollsters they believe in God ought to understand that the only real way to prove that God exists is through the brotherhood of mankind. If we treat other people like they are our brothers and sisters, then our actions constitute robust proof that we all derive from a common origin.

To be sure, there are times when religion has to fight for what's right even if it means alienating the less religious. These times would include earth-shattering issues like the preservation of human life, which many define as a ban on abortion, and the preservation of the nuclear family, which many define as a ban on gay marriage. But for "Merry Christmas" posters in Macy's? For a Christmas float in a Denver parade?

I'm not saying these issues are not important. I would like to see more overt religious symbols throughout America. But was there no way to go about achieving these ends than to create yet another cultural war in America, and calling the secularists "Christian-haters" and "God-haters," thereby making them into sworn enemies?

Whatever happened to Christians trying to influence non-Christians with a positive message? Isn't Christianity primarily about proselytizing and spreading the Gospel? Isn't it about disseminating the "good news" of Christ? Is the only way to achieve that these days not through rational argument and positive persuasion, but by labeling all who may mistakenly believe that religion has no place in public life in America as Christian-haters?

In yet another TV debate that I had with Bill Donohue of the Catholic League on MSNBC's "Scarborough Country" last Monday, he claimed that 16 Nativity scenes had been defamed across the United States. When I questioned his characterization of these events as "hate crimes" against Christianity, he got angry at me and compared it to swastikas being spray-painted on synagogues.

Now, if Christians want to feel persecuted in America, if they want to convince themselves that secularists want to burn down their churches, they have that right. But what purpose does it serve? Most evangelical Christians are politically-conservative, and they reject the victimization mentality that has become so prevalent among many Americans, particularly minorities.

So are we now going to argue that Christians are a persecuted majority? Is it healthy for Christian children to grow up believing that they are hated, in the same way that so many Jewish and black kids grew up? And can you really compare attacks on Nativity scenes to swastikas on synagogues, which evoke a Holocaust of 6 million Jews who were turned into piles of ashes?

I am not seeking to minimize attacks on Christian symbols. They are hideous and ought to be condemned. But I do not believe that Christians are being persecuted in the United States, just as I do not believe that Jews and black are today being persecuted in this great country, and I am truly puzzled as to why so many Christian leaders want to teach their flocks to feel like disempowered victims.

I want America to be a more religious nation. I would love to see religious symbols and displays dotting the entire American landscape. I long to see more American children going to church and praying, more American men and women studying the Bible, and more American citizens supporting religious causes both in money and personal commitment. But I would also love to see a more united country that feels itself – both religious and secular – to be one indivisible family. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Abraham Lincoln died for his vision of a united country that was not divided into North and South. Brave men and women in uniform today around the world put their lives on the line for the United States of America. Their sacrifice should inspire us to reach out to each other and create a more perfect union.


Can't we all just get along?




 

-----signature-----
I'm gonna miss Bush...isms.
I write reviews and editorials for http://www.rrbgames.com
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Undomiel  3491 posts
Registered: May '02
19077_Princess Leia
Date Posted: 12/23/04 9:51am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
Several points to make here:

My husband commented on the report concerning the removal of christian-related christmas songs from public schools. His solution for christians or people who don't mind christian-related christmas songs, was as follows:

Refuse to pay any more taxes to the public school system the way it is now, and instead, ask for an option: A public school for people who don't mind religiously-related topics, and a different and separate public school for people who don't like religiously-related topics of any kind... period. This way, you can once again have freedom of speech and expression to discuss topics or sing songs or have artwork and so on, related to the various religious schools of thought without concern that someone's atheistic or agnostic parent[s] will be offended. Really is a shame it has gotten to this point.

So far, the argument has been that it is a government institution and therefore can't advance religious perspectives of any kind, but what they don't remind you of is that you pay for it, so it really isn't public in the traditional sense of government-owned. It's owned by everyone who pays taxes, and they, therefore, should have some say in what transpires or doesn't transpire there. To cover the 2 diametrically-opposed sides of the issue, provide 2 public schools. I know it sounds ridiculous but then the situation has gotten to the point of being ludicrous anyway.

rose

Ophelia,

I sense a bit of religious disagreement between you and the ladies of Concerned Women for America. Is it perchance a catholic vs. protestant disagreement or a fundamental vs. liberal disagreement? Your initial viewpoints on all things religious, can make a difference in interpreting data (but you already know that).

rose


As regards Christmas and its commercial aspects: There are already 2 Christmas' - one for christians (celebration of Jesus' birthday even though it isn't his actual birthday but is rather the original pagan celebration for the Winter Solstice and the god Jupiter or some such), and one for pagans (Santa and so forth). Most think of the Santa version as the generic christmas, but it really isn't generic. It's massively pagan. So really, when they sing songs in public schools or play songs in public buildings about Santa, they are really venerating the pagan version of Christmas. Christians, for the most part, don't seem to mind though, as there's nothing particularly troublesome about Santa and his elves, or the spirit of giving or the celebration of the Fullness of the Year.

The people that do seem to mind (either version), are the ones that strain over minute details on one subject and completely ignore massive details in another. What can be said except: "Peoples is peoples." - Muppets take Manhattan.



 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History