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Author	Topic: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
BenduHopkins Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 12/23/04 12:57pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	An excerpt from that History Channel link: "It is not surprising that, like many other festive Christmas customs, the tree was adopted so late in America. To the New England Puritans, Christmas was sacred. The pilgrims's second governor, William Bradford, wrote that he tried hard to stamp out "pagan mockery" of the observance, penalizing any frivolity. The influential Oliver Cromwell preached against "the heathen traditions" of Christmas carols, decorated trees, and any joyful expression that desecrated "that sacred event." In 1659, the General Court of Massachusetts enacted a law making any observance of December 25 (other than a church service) a penal offense; people were fined for hanging decorations. That stern solemnity continued until the 19th century, when the influx of German and Irish immigrants undermined the Puritan legacy. " Need we retread that territory? -----signature----- Hope your special day is filled with fun and adventure!
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BenduHopkins Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 12/23/04 1:05pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	Another thing is, if I don't personally accept Jesus as my savior, but celebrate Christmas by honoring him a little in my heart the way I would another guy from a long time ago, like Lao Tzu, who had some good teachings, what's so wrong with that. If I want to mostly get in the holiday spirit without much thinking of Jesus, but still call it "Christmas" because that's how I was raised, that's my right. Also, these people who are threatened by "Christmas" and want it all to be "Happy Holidays" should realize it doesn't matter. Since I was born, there was always "Seasons Greetings" "Happy Hannukah" "Merry Christmas: "Happy Holidays" and now "Happy Kwanza"... My point? To each his own, my friends... The holiday is what it is. Secular for some, devout for others. Celebrated in different fashions. No big deal there, correct? -----signature----- Hope your special day is filled with fun and adventure!
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Undomiel Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 12/23/04 1:16pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	AnakinsGirl, Christian Charitable Organizations World Hunger Site - Bread for the World http://www.bread.org/ Bright Hope International http://www.brighthope.org/ CECA http://www.ceca.cc/ Christian Reformed World Relief Committee http://www.crwrc.org/ Christian Relief Services Charities http://www.christianrelief.org/ Church Action on Poverty http://www.church-poverty.org.uk/ Church Urban Fund http://www.cuf.org.uk/ World Vision http://www.worldvision.org/ ECHO http://www.echonet.org/ Faith in Practice http://www.faithinpractice.org/index.php FAME http://www.fameworld.org/home.aspx Food for the Hungry http://www.fhi.net/ Global Hope. org http://www.globalhope.org/ Global Outreach http://www.globaloutreach.org/ Heal the Nations http://www.healthenations.com/ Helps International http://www.helpsintl.org/ His Kids, Too http://www.hiskidstoo.org/ Honduras Outreach http://www.hoi.org/ Hope Connections http://www.hopeconnections.org/ Etc, etc, etc. That's only A-H and only under the search parameters of "christian charities" and doesn't include the charitable work of the Catholic Church, and individual members of any particular christian belief and related organizations. In addition, Vegans can also be Christians and vice-a-versa. For the Animals http://www.fortheanimals.8k.com/vegetarian_living.html Christians work in animal shelters, help to save the lives of wounded animals, and so on. There are christian veternarians. Christian health food store owners and christian health food fanatics. http://www.hacres.com/ There are christians interested in saving the environment http://cesc.montreat.edu/GSI/GSI-Conf/Mini-Grants/Taylor-OneBody.html Christian Environmentalism http://douglas7eberman.net/The_Christian_Environmentalist.html Christians in drug outreach programs. And so on. We're all on this planet together, and most of us realize that.
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CitizenKane Registered: Aug '04	Date Posted: 12/23/04 1:39pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	He is giving his opinion, and too many (you?) are taking it as fact, without knowing the full content. Yet you do not reply to those four links I gave you. Hmmm... i think christmas is one huge celebration of christian hypocrisy and a disgusting display of american consumerism and capitalism. Thank you so much! You just proved every point I have tried to make on this topic, and then some. The anger, the hatred, the secularist Christianophobia- you got it all, babe. -----signature----- CitizenKane
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ophelia Title: Ex-Mod Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 12/23/04 5:56pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	cal_silverstar and DeathStar1977--those were great articles. I'm not really sure there's as much Christian/secular animosity going around as the author of the Worldnetdaily article says--it seems to me that what's actually happening is that two small opposing camps who've always disliked each other are just being louder than usual--but he still makes some good points. I have this vague idea that, as a Christian, I'm supposed to be offended by the Shrines o' the World display mentioned in the Festivus article, but actually I think it's hilarious. I think every town green should have a Shrines 'o the World display up at least once a year. Maybe it could be part of the Festivus tradition, along with disappointing people and wrestling. Obviously, the ACLU doesn't get it. Undomiel wrote: Refuse to pay any more taxes to the public school system the way it is now, and instead, ask for an option: A public school for people who don't mind religiously-related topics, and a different and separate public school for people who don't like religiously-related topics of any kind... period. This way, you can once again have freedom of speech and expression to discuss topics or sing songs or have artwork and so on, related to the various religious schools of thought without concern that someone's atheistic or agnostic parent[s] will be offended. Really is a shame it has gotten to this point. Actually, if Bush could sell enough people on his faith-based school voucher program, that's basically what would happen. I'd have no problem with that idea, so long as one religion wasn't getting favored treatment. I sense a bit of religious disagreement between you and the ladies of Concerned Women for America. Is it perchance a catholic vs. protestant disagreement or a fundamental vs. liberal disagreement? Well, there are two answers to that. They are conservative and I am liberal, so it's a guarantee that we won't see eye-to-eye on a lot of issues. This actually isn't the part I have a problem with. I have a problem with the fact that CWFA does a very poor job of checking its facts in many cases. It also seems to have largely given itself over to "fear news," in which reality is exaggerated or distorted for the purpose of triggering fear and anger in people. The goal is to whip them into such an agitated frenzy that they're too upset to think critically about what's being reported, and will be more likely to believe anything they hear. I don't like it when anyone does this, conservative or liberal. I agree with most of Michael Moore's politics, but I'm not fond of Michael Moore, because he is the king of fear news. He's not trying to get people to think about the issues, he's trying to get them not to think. He wants them to respond in an emotional, knee-jerk way, because he apparently doesn't trust them (or his causes) enough to allow the issues to be seriously examined. The people at CWFA are a lot more subtle about it than Moore is, but they do the same thing. There was an especially egregious article a while back about how "gays" were going to prevent Christian parents from reading the Bible to their children, all because of a custody case in Colorado that bore no resemblance to the "facts" as CWFA had reported them. Actually, that particular article managed to sink to a depth Moore has yet to touch. He exaggerates and mocks the opposition instead of answering their challenges, but he hasn't yet started making up stories to support paranoid conspiracy theories. I have this idea that CWFA wasn't always like that . . . up until recently, I considered it a basically respectable group that I didn't happen to agree with. However, I've looked into their "reporting" a lot recently, and have found them to essentially be a conservative version of Moore, only without the wit or social satire. If you want to compare apples to apples, look at CWFA's site and then check out the National Review. They talk about all the same things; the ACLU is evil, secular society is depraved, the liberals need to quit whining about the separation of church and state, etc., etc., etc. And yet somehow, over at the National Review, the world is not ending. Shadowy, unnamed "gays" aren't working nefarious conspiracies to crush Christian organizations, despite the "unconvincing" protests of everyone involved that this is not happening. Christians have not suddenly changed places with the Jews in Nazi Germany, or black South Africans under Aparthied. Actually, over at NR, the conservatives have solid control of the country, and things are looking pretty good. In a nutshell, responsible journalistic practices make the difference between conservative organizations I don't agree with and conservative organizations I don't respect. It's massively pagan. So really, when they sing songs in public schools or play songs in public buildings about Santa, they are really venerating the pagan version of Christmas. Christians, for the most part, don't seem to mind though, as there's nothing particularly troublesome about Santa and his elves, or the spirit of giving or the celebration of the Fullness of the Year. Actually, one of my sisters is in training to be pagan clergy, and she would beg to differ. The pagans don't want to be associated with that stuff either. I should ask her what pagans do at Yule. I went to her Beltane ceremony with her (their version of Easter), and it seemed like a very informal, alternate-universe version of a Catholic Mass. Of course, that means that this holiday it's my turn, and I get to take her to an actual Mass. We're doing the Christmas Eve midnight Mass, which is at least a fun one. If I was feeling mean I'd have taken her to Easter Vigil down at the cathedral in Detroit. That runs for hours. Cheveyo wrote: This was my argument, not whether or not homosexuality is recognized in native american culture. Oh, I know. I was just saying. The two-spirits tradition is not the same as "being gay," and in and of itself it's not holy, although you can do holy things with it. So, in terms of tradition, we have niether homosexuality nor holiness here. None of that really applies to the Denver group anyway, since they're a self-described GLBT support group. Nothing wrong with that, it's just not terribly connected with ancient Native American tradition (and the group doesn't claim otherwise). -----signature----- In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps with your mom
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Jedi Merkurian Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 12/23/04 6:14pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	"Thank you so much! You just proved every point I have tried to make on this topic, and then some. The anger, the hatred, the secularist Christianophobia- you got it all, babe." And The Brick Wall Award for Not Getting It goes to... So let me clarify. She wasn't railing against Christmas itself, she was decrying what Christmas has become. -----signature----- Striking down can result in common side effects including fear, anger, aggresion, nausea, dry mouth, hatred, suffering, headaches, IBS, & in some extreme cases has been linked to lava burns Please consult your doctor before striking anyone down
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CitizenKane Registered: Aug '04	Date Posted: 12/23/04 6:22pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	And The Brick Wall Award for Not Getting It goes to... Liberal Democrats! So let me clarify. She wasn't railing against Christmas itself, she was decrying what Christmas has become. Thats definitely not what she said. I would love to know what "hypocrisy" she is referring to, or if she is just smearing. -----signature----- CitizenKane
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Cyprusg Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 12/23/04 6:27pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	Liberal Democrats! -----signature----- The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge
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ophelia Title: Ex-Mod Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 12/23/04 7:11pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	AnakinsGirl's user info says she's 18, so let's let her speak for herself. -----signature----- In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps with your mom
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sidious618 Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 12/23/04 7:13pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	As long as I can celebrate Festivus I'm fine with any Christmas stuff. -----signature----- But in purple, I'm stunning!- Londo Mollari, Babylon 5
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J-Rod Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 12/23/04 7:13pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	What's Festivus? -----signature----- God Bless Barack Obama Darth_wanderguard :"Maybe you're not quite as crazy as people say you are" Gamertag: zZ J ROD Zz
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Mr44 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 12/23/04 7:20pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas) - Date Edited: 12/23/04 7:24pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Mr44
	Festivus is from an episode of Sienfeld, J-Rod.. Despite the fact that the episode hasn't aired in some 5 odd years or so, people go around quoting it because they think its still witty, even though its already been quoted 1000 times by now.. -----signature----- When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise He has started to think and is therefore dangerous... -- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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J-Rod Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 12/23/04 7:23pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas) - Date Edited: 12/23/04 7:25pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Mr44
	Sienfeld Ahhhh... -----signature----- God Bless Barack Obama Darth_wanderguard :"Maybe you're not quite as crazy as people say you are" Gamertag: zZ J ROD Zz
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sidious618 Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 12/23/04 7:39pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	Despite the fact that the episode hasn't aired in some 5 odd years or so, people go around quoting it because they think its still witty, even though its already been quoted 1000 times by now.. Actually it aired last week. And your comment was slightly rude and shows that you obviously got up on the wrong side of bed. -----signature----- But in purple, I'm stunning!- Londo Mollari, Babylon 5
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Mr44 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 12/23/04 7:47pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas) - Date Edited: 12/23/04 7:52pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Mr44
	I guess it could be considered rather rude, since it came after your post, but it was more of an answer to the question. What I was referring to was the strange phenomenon of people using a television reference "to be different," despite the fact that was the entire inside joke of the skit. -----signature----- When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise He has started to think and is therefore dangerous... -- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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