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Author	Topic: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
Jedi Merkurian Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 12/24/04 5:47am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	Happy Hogwatch everyone! HO. HO. HO. -----signature----- Striking down can result in common side effects including fear, anger, aggresion, nausea, dry mouth, hatred, suffering, headaches, IBS, & in some extreme cases has been linked to lava burns Please consult your doctor before striking anyone down
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Undomiel Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 12/24/04 5:51am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	Same to you, Jedi Merkurian!
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ophelia Title: Ex-Mod Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 12/24/04 8:10am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	Undomiel wrote: Are you referring to the case where a couple divorced and the child moved in with the formerly-gay turned christian parent, who read the child verses from the bible describing homosexuality as a sin? I've extrapolated, due to lack of full disclosure, that the other parent (the one that didn't have custody) was in disagreement with this, and decided he/she wanted some say in what the child was learning at home about homosexuality, took it to court, and won the case, which basically said that the parent with custody was not allowed to teach her child from the bible about homosexuality being wrong. I didn't have all the info, so I assumed the parent that didn't have custody, might have been gay, and found that such teachings undermined his/her relationship with the child. What exactly WAS the story then? The original judge's opinion actually didn't define "homophobic material" at all, which is the reason the Colorado Appellate Court reversed that part of the ruling. The only specific religious materials which were referred to in the case were pamphlets found in the custodial parent's church. The Bible was never so much as mentioned; the panic over how the homos were going to court to prevent parents from reading the Bible to their children was entirely manufactured by conservative groups who wanted to frighten conservative Christians. CWFA's original article on this issue badly mischaracterizes the relationship between the child and the non-custodial guardian, and by implication misrepresents the child's relationship with the custodial parent. (I.e., "McLeod has no biological relationship with the child." Neither does Clark. The child was adopted from China.) The article acknowledges that the judge objected to pamphlets and not the Bible, and yet warns, without any particular evidence, that this is "only the tip of the iceberg" because "it takes no stretch of the imagination to envision a judge finding the mother in contempt of court for merely teaching her daughter about the Biblical truths on homosexuality.” Much of the "O teh drama" content consists of quotations from a representative from Liberty Counsel, the Right's answer to the ACLU, but CWFA does nothing to tone down his paranoia. The LC representative warns us that this Colorado custody case is "a clash between the Christian worldview and the homosexual worldview. One of them is going to win. If the homosexuals win, then Christians will be silenced.” Oh, please. Change "Christian" and "homosexual" to "Empire" and "Republic," and that could be part of Star Wars' opening crawl. This is the flower of conservative legal scholarship? CWFA's subsequent report on the case wisely drops the religion issue entirely, since it turns out that the "tip of the iceberg" was a white speck on the binoculars of Liberty Counsel's "expert." The terrible, activist, "gay worldview" courts reversed the original ruling on homophobic material and granted sole responsibility for religious training to the custodial (i.e. ex-gay Christian) parent. However, CWFA continues to minimize the legal and affectional relationship between McLeod and the child, and to maximize the differences between this case and similar ones that don't happen to involve homosexuality. Background information you won't hear from CWFA includes: McLeod went to China with Clark to adopt the girl with the full and agreed-upon intent of helping raise her; the child was given the last names of both women; "birth announcements" with McLeod's name were sent out upon the child's arrival in the U.S.; and McLeod was granted joint legal custody of the girl--at Clark's insistence--when the child was six months old. McLeod has also always contributed to the financial well-being of the girl. If she were an unmarried male partner the case would be open and shut, but since she's female, "joint legal custody" is apparently supposed to mean something other than "joint legal custody." This is a link to the Colorado Appellate Court's decision (Word document format). It discusses the Clark/McLeod domestic situation with great detail, if people are interested. Also, there's more discussion about this topic on page 13 of the Federal Marriage Amendment thread. CWFA's second release on the case can pass for merely partisan, although the fact that McLeod has had legal custody of the girl for eight-and-a-half years, from the time the child was an infant, isn't the most logical place to start editorial snipping of the case. The lifelong-custody issue is a large part of the reason the court ruled as it did. This is, by the way, the sort of thing that Moore does. Both Moore and CWFA grab part of the truth and run with it, without trusting their audience to agree with them if they hear the full story. CWFA's first release is simply irresponsible. Its fact-checking is poor, and appears to be second-hand; Clark's lawyer is quoted from an earlier interview with Culture & Family Institute. It doesn't seem that CWFA has actually spoken to him, and there is nothing to indicate that either of the "legal experts" they quote has first-hand-knowledge of the case either. This wouldn't be such a big deal if the article weren't making grandiose claims about fallout from the court decision. All of "the Christians" in America, if not on earth, will be "silenced" because of this custody case, yet no one can be bothered to do enough research to find out that neither of the court petitioners is a biological parent? That is, to put it politely, horse puckey. Even Michael Moore is a better journalist than that. -----signature----- The graves stood tenantless, and the sheeted dead did squeak and gibber in the Roman streets. --Hamlet
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Undomiel Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 12/24/04 10:57am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	Ophelia, It reminds me of the days when people were told that smoking marijuana would or usually did lead to heroine usage. Druggies were like... oh come on, I'm not the least bit interested in heroine. It is true, that if you let down your guard on some things, you might be more suspectible and inclined to try other things you wouldn't have originally, but this isn't across the board (but if it saves even one person from that slippery slope, it's worth the effort, doncha think?) The problem you're seeing is not people trying to generate fear, it's people who are afraid. Trends have a tendency to burn brightly for awhile and fade away (which is usually the case and why you don't see the reason for concern), but some trends prove themselves to be more than mere trends, and I think this is what some people are beginning to panic about. They are human beings, afterall.
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Cheveyo Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 12/24/04 4:35pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	Are you saying they outlawed instrumental music (as in no words) because it was from a christian-oriented christmas song? Specifically, known Christian songs were banned, including those same songs performed without their lyrics--i.e. Silent Night, etc. -----signature----- I am a Founding Father. Want to know more? Just ask.
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ophelia Title: Ex-Mod Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 12/24/04 7:58pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas) - Date Edited: 12/24/04 7:59pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ophelia
	Undomiel: but if it saves even one person from that slippery slope, it's worth the effort, doncha think?) Well, the thing about case law is that you can't save "just one person" with it. As the groundbreaking case goes, so all similar cases go. You make an excellent point about how fear news is as much an effect as a cause of fear, and I expect it's the "as one goes, they all go" effect that CWFA is worried about. FWIW, precedent isn't really an issue in this particular case. The issue is that the only way to avoid a situation like the Colorado custody case would be to either ban joint legal custody for non-parents (legal in 19 states, largely to protect kids whose primary caregiver is grandma or aunt so-and-so), or to pass the Federal Marriage Amendment with some sort of rider saying that homosexuals can't file for joint custody. A "homosexual exception law" passed at a lower level than that wouldn't stand--Colorado already tried amending its constitution to forbid civil rights protections to gays, and the Supreme Court said no. So precedent isn't the problem as much as the fact that you can't give a right to everyone in a state except for members of group X. -----signature----- The graves stood tenantless, and the sheeted dead did squeak and gibber in the Roman streets. --Hamlet
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DarthBreezy Title: Retired Mos Everett Cantina Founder & JMPR Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 12/24/04 8:33pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	ARG! Not another thread derailed into the discussion of 'gays' and how wrong they are!!!! To repete what BenduHopkins so wonderfully said, Another thing is, if I don't personally accept Jesus as my savior, but celebrate Christmas by honoring him a little in my heart the way I would another guy from a long time ago, like Lao Tzu, who had some good teachings, what's so wrong with that.... If I want to mostly get in the holiday spirit without much thinking of Jesus, but still call it "Christmas" because that's how I was raised, that's my right. On that note, a very joyful Christmas to everyone, be safe and love one another... -----signature----- http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/29640754/p1 Dear Tam - an AU post ROTJ story told through the eyes of a child "It's hard, being a Jedi..." - Pem Skywalker Anywhere Is Possible
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AnakinsGirl Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 12/24/04 9:46pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	well, since the celebration of christmas has been slowly devoid of all real religious value anyways....i try to treat christmas as a day of peace, love, and good will towards every human being. just a sort of...love of humanity day, being generous to fellow humans day, etc. when i have children, i don't intend on raising them with religion. i have wrestled with the idea of how to handle christmas, and i have finally decided that's how i will handle it. i will say, 'kids, a long time ago, there was this guy who brought alot of truth to the world....' and hopefully they will learn to take the truths that jesus taught (being compassion, selflessness, nonviolence, acceptance, etc.) and celebrate the life of a person who is truly worth mentioning in human history. anyways. that's my thoughts on christmas, minus the bitterness and cynicism.
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Master_SweetPea Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 12/25/04 9:16am Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	I for one have decided to be totally PC and send everyone my greeting of HAPPY HOLIDAYS! That way I know I won't offend a single person and we can all live in peace. -----signature----- I don't like the donkeys and I don't like the Elephants http://www.lp.org "Some people never have anything except ideas Go Do it! Lucky Numbers 3, 11, 21, 31, 41, 43"
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Cheveyo Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 12/25/04 12:52pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	That way I know I won't offend a single person and we can all live in peace. Except for Jehovah's Witness, who find it sacreligious (sp) to celebrate the holidays (including birthdays). Sorry, Sweetpea, I just had to. Merry Christmas to all who choose to celebrate it today. -----signature----- I am a Founding Father. Want to know more? Just ask.
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Master_SweetPea Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 12/25/04 5:11pm Subject: Season's Greetings!
	HAPPY HOLIDAYS! is a link to my special greeting , intended to offend the easily offended... -----signature----- I don't like the donkeys and I don't like the Elephants http://www.lp.org "Some people never have anything except ideas Go Do it! Lucky Numbers 3, 11, 21, 31, 41, 43"
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Kyle Katarn Registered: Jul '98	Date Posted: 12/31/04 2:51pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas)
	I find this whole thing interesting. The predomanantly Christian countries are doing everything to avoid even mentioning the C-word in December, and yet the countries where Christians are a minority, Christmas is a huge celebration which one wouldn't miss. I had a friend who recently spent some time in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) during the first half of December. The hotel he stayed at was decked out with Christmas trees, presents, a nativity scene (all the figures had darker, swarthy toned skin and not a single light skinned figure), banners with "Merry Christmas" printed in both English and Arabic, and many natives sharing the same sentiment with little or no regard over what might be construed as being "offensive. This was in stark contrast to when he arrived in London (and the US the next day) on his flight back home and found little or no Christmas decorations, but rather "Happy Holidays" posted every so often in a dull, non-festive manner so no one would be "offended". My question is this: why must we get our collective panties in a bunch about "offending" non-Christians when they're all too ready to celebrate holidays which have no religious meaning to them? Plenty of non-Christians around the world celebrate Christmas as a time for gift giving and being with family, why must we try to conceal it like a junior high student would with a pimple? It's a sad state of affairs when we've become so afraid to celebrate something so joyous that we feel we have to hide it from the world so we won't risk offending someone. -----signature----- The ones who love us best are the ones we'll lay to rest And visit their graves on holidays at best The ones who love us least are the ones we'll die to please If it's any consolation, I don't begin to understand them
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Obi-Wan McCartney Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 1/2/05 3:02pm Subject: RE: Merry Christmas! (A secularist view on Christmas decorations and the spirit of X-mas) - Date Edited: 1/2/05 4:11pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Obi-Wan McCartney
	The predomanantly Christian countries are doing everything to avoid even mentioning the C-word in December -What nonesense. There are cases of it going around, but by and large Christmas is still the biggest thing there is in terms of American celebration and reverence. -----signature----- God Bless J-Rod's Wife! Obi-Wan McCartney: Model Forum Member since 1999! America's Beatles are far better than England's precious Rolling Stones
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