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Topic:
2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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DarthKarde
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
5/18 3:49pm
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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G-FETT posted:
So is Labour set to lose Crewe and Nantwich? The poll I read in the News of the World today made for grim reading for Labour, but are they really going to be beaten in one of their heartlands?
In all fairness it would be quite a shock if Labour didn't lose Crewe & Nantwich at a by election at this stage in the electoral cycle. I would say that a comparison with Mid Staffordshire is appropriate. In 1987 the tories held it with a majority of 14,000+ but in a 1990 by election labour won the seat by over 9,000 votes on a 21% swing.
Far more important is that Nick Clegg has indicated that he would support a minority tory government in a hung parliament. That pretty much assures that Cameron will be PM after the next election.
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Mustafar_66
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/19 2:34pm
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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Christ, Clegg actually said that? Well spank me rosy, I never thought I'd see that!
In other news, what are peoples opinions on the hybrid embryo ruling today? Personally I'm glad. Anything that has the massive potential to save lives is a-ok in my books.
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DarthKarde
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
5/20 2:58am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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Mustafar_66 posted:
In other news, what are peoples opinions on the hybrid embryo ruling today? Personally I'm glad. Anything that has the massive potential to save lives is a-ok in my books.
A truly abominable decision, without doubt one of the very worse things this government has done. That Cameron supported this is enough alone for me to hope that he never becomes PM.
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G-FETT
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
5/20 8:51am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
- Date Edited:
5/20 8:55am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
G-FETT
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DarthKarde posted:
G-FETT posted:
So is Labour set to lose Crewe and Nantwich? The poll I read in the News of the World today made for grim reading for Labour, but are they really going to be beaten in one of their heartlands?
In all fairness it would be quite a shock if Labour didn't lose Crewe & Nantwich at a by election at this stage in the electoral cycle. I would say that a comparison with Mid Staffordshire is appropriate. In 1987 the tories held it with a majority of 14,000+ but in a 1990 by election labour won the seat by over 9,000 votes on a 21% swing.
Well, 1990 was of course at the height of the poll tax controversy, so it'd certainly be going some for the Tories to achieve that degree of swing. That said, it does look like they're going to win Crewe and Nantwich. I think the surprise is just that they haven't won a by election for so long, it seems kind of a shock to actually be discussing a Conservative win. A bit like the London mayoral election. Its so long since the Tories were in such a strong position that I've forgotten what its like to see the Cons winning. As far as the by election, I can't remember them ever winning one (and I'm now at the grand old age of 30  ) The last time they took one directly of Labour, I was just one year old! 
As far as the embryo bill goes, I can see the arguements on both sides. I've had a lot of ill health in my life, and I know what its like to suffer from health problems, and I'm sure if I got an illness that could be cured using treatments developed through this technology, I would have no concerns on taking said treatment. But thats me speaking as a selfish human being. I can also see the other side that is about the greater good of things, which is not messing about with this stuff. That is completely goes against nature, etc.... If I had a vote, I really don't know how I'd vote, quite honestly.
That said, I'm not sure why your picking on David Cameron, Karde. This issue was a free vote, and all MP's were voting for themselves, and their own personal situations, opinions and morals. I'm sure Cameron's decision was influenced by the fact that he has a severely disabled child, and personally, I think its only fair that his personal experiance informs his decision in this. I don't criticise him for that. And Cameron wasn't the only party leader to vote for this, so really, is it fair that you pick him out?
I understand that tonight he'll be voting to lower the abortion limit. Again, he'll be voting for his own opinion on this, which I think is fair enough.
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The Saga returns; August 15th 2008.
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DarthKarde
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
5/20 4:47pm
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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G-FETT posted:
[quote=DarthKarde]That said, I'm not sure why your picking on David Cameron, Karde. This issue was a free vote, and all MP's were voting for themselves, and their own personal situations, opinions and morals. I'm sure Cameron's decision was influenced by the fact that he has a severely disabled child, and personally, I think its only fair that his personal experiance informs his decision in this. I don't criticise him for that. And Cameron wasn't the only party leader to vote for this, so really, is it fair that you pick him out?
Exactly. It was a free vote and he was voting based on his "personal situations, opinions and morals" which is why it says so much about him. This bill is an abomination and all those who vote for it deserve eternal damnation for their utter disregard for the sanctity of human life.
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G-FETT
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
5/21 1:58am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
- Date Edited:
5/21 2:00am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
G-FETT
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DarthKarde posted:
G-FETT posted:
[quote=DarthKarde]That said, I'm not sure why your picking on David Cameron, Karde. This issue was a free vote, and all MP's were voting for themselves, and their own personal situations, opinions and morals. I'm sure Cameron's decision was influenced by the fact that he has a severely disabled child, and personally, I think its only fair that his personal experiance informs his decision in this. I don't criticise him for that. And Cameron wasn't the only party leader to vote for this, so really, is it fair that you pick him out?
Exactly. It was a free vote and he was voting based on his "personal situations, opinions and morals" which is why it says so much about him. This bill is an abomination and all those who vote for it deserve eternal damnation for their utter disregard for the sanctity of human life.
 God grief, thats a bit strong, isn't it? I mean, like I say, I can see the arguements on both sides, but playing devils advocate, what about human life that would be left to wither and die from various genetic or neurological disorders if this hadn't gone through Parilament? Aren't those people's lives worth anything?
And, I still don't see the problem with Cameron voting on this with his conscience. This is what all MP's do on free vote issues and just because he's taken a differant view to you on this Karde, doesn't make him evil or mean he deserves eternal damnation. He's just got a differant opinion, thats all....
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I felt a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror. Then were suddenly silenced.
The Saga returns; August 15th 2008.
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DarthKarde
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
5/21 6:32am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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G-FETT posted:
DarthKarde posted:
G-FETT posted:
[quote=DarthKarde]That said, I'm not sure why your picking on David Cameron, Karde. This issue was a free vote, and all MP's were voting for themselves, and their own personal situations, opinions and morals. I'm sure Cameron's decision was influenced by the fact that he has a severely disabled child, and personally, I think its only fair that his personal experiance informs his decision in this. I don't criticise him for that. And Cameron wasn't the only party leader to vote for this, so really, is it fair that you pick him out?
Exactly. It was a free vote and he was voting based on his "personal situations, opinions and morals" which is why it says so much about him. This bill is an abomination and all those who vote for it deserve eternal damnation for their utter disregard for the sanctity of human life.
God grief, thats a bit strong, isn't it? I mean, like I say, I can see the arguements on both sides, but playing devils advocate, what about human life that would be left to wither and die from various genetic or neurological disorders if this hadn't gone through Parilament? Aren't those people's lives worth anything?
Of course such people's life is worth something, a great bloody deal in fact. However even if you accept the dubious idea that creating human/animal hybrid embryos would further medical advances such a step is still totally and utterly wrong. The ends do not justify the means and if you believe otherwise you are dangerously close to the morality of the Nazi scientists who always claimed that their grotesque experiments were legitimate medical research.
G-FETT posted:
And, I still don't see the problem with Cameron voting on this with his conscience. This is what all MP's do on free vote issues and just because he's taken a differant view to you on this Karde, doesn't make him evil or mean he deserves eternal damnation. He's just got a differant opinion, thats all....
He should of course vote with his conscience, on all votes, but I have every right to judge him ill for it. It might no make him evil but along with the other 300+ MP's who voted for this he has done something truly horific.
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Jaden-Skywalker
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/21 12:12pm
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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I think it's a shame that New Labour are still in power, while they were a magnificent breath of fresh air after John Major things have steadily gone downhill. We need a government that isn't concerned with pleasing everyone and that actually has policies of it's own (yes, I'm talking about you Brown and Cameron). Brown betrayed this country by refusing the referendum on the EU, but I do feel sorry for him for being in Blair's shadow for the last decade and now facing a multitude of problems.
Yet there is hope! Tony Benn is seeking to return to politics, so we may have a true left-wing party after all! As for the embryo bill, I think it's a fantastic idea. We should be aiming to help these people, not leave them behind because it's unnatural. Driving a car is unnatural but you don't hear these same people calling for banning cars. The abortion decision is also a great victory for individual liberty and women's choice. Personally, I wouldn't want my partner to have an abortion but I'm very happy that we have that choice in this country.
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G-FETT
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
5/22 2:22pm
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
- Date Edited:
5/22 2:25pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
G-FETT
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As far as I was aware, there was never a question of taking away a womans right to choose, but rather shortening the time avaliable to 20 or 22 weeks? On this one, I have to say, I was in favour of the time limit coming down. Seeing the pictures of babies at 24 weeks makes you realise that your talking about a virtually developed little human being at that point. I think thats too late and I think/hope that when the Tories get in they will move to bring it down to 20 weeks.
Anyway, on more trivial issues, I've just heard that Labour are already conceading defeat in Crewe and Nantwich!
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I felt a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror. Then were suddenly silenced.
The Saga returns; August 15th 2008.
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DarthKarde
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
5/23 10:10am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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G-FETT posted:
As far as I was aware, there was never a question of taking away a womans right to choose, but rather shortening the time avaliable to 20 or 22 weeks? On this one, I have to say, I was in favour of the time limit coming down. Seeing the pictures of babies at 24 weeks makes you realise that your talking about a virtually developed little human being at that point. I think thats too late and I think/hope that when the Tories get in they will move to bring it down to 20 weeks.
Anyway, on more trivial issues, I've just heard that Labour are already conceading defeat in Crewe and Nantwich!
Given that babies can and have survived being born at around 21 weeks I find it astonishing that anyone can think that the time limits should remain as they are.
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G-FETT
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
5/23 1:23pm
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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Agreed. Infact, I wouldn't have a probvlem with them bringing it down to 18 weeks. I certainly think it should be reduced to 20 weeks, though. If the Conservatives get in next time I would think theres a reasonable chance of them reducing down to 20 weeks, as the vote this week was mainly along party lines.
Anyway, what about Crewe and Nantwich by election? Is a 17% swing and a majority of nearly 8,000 good enough for the Tories to be on course to win the general election?
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I felt a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror. Then were suddenly silenced.
The Saga returns; August 15th 2008.
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Mustafar_66
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/23 2:07pm
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
- Date Edited:
5/23 2:08pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Mustafar_66
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DarthKarde posted:
Mustafar_66 posted:
In other news, what are peoples opinions on the hybrid embryo ruling today? Personally I'm glad. Anything that has the massive potential to save lives is a-ok in my books.
A truly abominable decision, without doubt one of the very worse things this government has done. That Cameron supported this is enough alone for me to hope that he never becomes PM.
How can you say that preventing something that can save already living human lives is so abhorrent? Embryo's are not human lives, they are clumps of cells. From them we can gather stem cells to help cure or aleviate the symptoms for those suffering from severe disabilities. For me, not allowing research like this to occur would be a bigger moral outrage than otherwise. Comparing it to Nazi experiments is quite frankly stupid and I expected better from you, Karde. Next you'll be bringing God into it.
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DarthKarde
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
5/24 8:53am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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Mustafar_66 posted:
DarthKarde posted:
Mustafar_66 posted:
In other news, what are peoples opinions on the hybrid embryo ruling today? Personally I'm glad. Anything that has the massive potential to save lives is a-ok in my books.
A truly abominable decision, without doubt one of the very worse things this government has done. That Cameron supported this is enough alone for me to hope that he never becomes PM.
How can you say that preventing something that can save already living human lives is so abhorrent? Embryo's are not human lives, they are clumps of cells. From them we can gather stem cells to help cure or aleviate the symptoms for those suffering from severe disabilities. For me, not allowing research like this to occur would be a bigger moral outrage than otherwise. Comparing it to Nazi experiments is quite frankly stupid and I expected better from you, Karde. Next you'll be bringing God into it.
1. Obviously I do not share your view that embryo's are merely clumps of cells.
2.I chose my words carefully but seemingly to no avail. I did not compare experimenting on embryos to Nazi experiments. I said that the idea that this move was okay because medical advances could come of it was extremely dangerous.
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Mustafar_66
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/24 6:44pm
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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So what would you propose? We ignore something that is off immeasurable benefit to millions of people worldwide? Could cure some of the worst diseases and disabilities known to man? To me, that outweighs any moral scruples that arise from using human/animal hybrid embryos. Unfortunately this is something that will be latched on to by pro-life groups and religious extremists, which has no place in science or politics.
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Jaden-Skywalker
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/25 1:47am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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We should pray for them, obviously.
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