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Topic:
2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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G-FETT
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
5/25 2:17am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
- Date Edited:
5/25 2:18am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
G-FETT
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Again, playing devils advocate, what about the question Gerald Kaufman raised in the House, which is; Where do you draw the line? Its all very well trying to help/save millions of people, but do the ends always justify the means? Does there come a limit where you say no more? And if so, where is that limit?
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Mustafar_66
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/25 3:54am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Seeing as how we can save or improve millions of lives then I'd say in this case the ends justify the means.
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DarthKarde
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
5/25 4:56am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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Mustafar_66 posted:
So what would you propose? We ignore something that is off immeasurable benefit to millions of people worldwide? Could cure some of the worst diseases and disabilities known to man? To me, that outweighs any moral scruples that arise from using human/animal hybrid embryos. Unfortunately this is something that will be latched on to by pro-life groups and religious extremists, which has no place in science or politics.
Firstly there are no assurances that this type of research will provide the kind of benefits you claim. Scientists are divided on this with many claiming that such experiments are extremely unlikely to provide major breakthroughs.
Secondly who the **** are you to decide that pro-life groups have no place in politics?
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Mustafar_66
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/25 7:32am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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DarthKarde posted:
Mustafar_66 posted:
So what would you propose? We ignore something that is off immeasurable benefit to millions of people worldwide? Could cure some of the worst diseases and disabilities known to man? To me, that outweighs any moral scruples that arise from using human/animal hybrid embryos. Unfortunately this is something that will be latched on to by pro-life groups and religious extremists, which has no place in science or politics.
Firstly there are no assurances that this type of research will provide the kind of benefits you claim. Scientists are divided on this with many claiming that such experiments are extremely unlikely to provide major breakthroughs.
Secondly who the **** are you to decide that pro-life groups have no place in politics?
It's worth the risk. How are we supposed to know if it won't lead to benefits if it doesn't get tested?
As for pro-lifers, personally I find them totally abhorrent but when I said politics I was referring to religious extremists. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
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DarthKarde
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
5/25 10:45am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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Mustafar_66 posted:
DarthKarde posted:
Mustafar_66 posted:
So what would you propose? We ignore something that is off immeasurable benefit to millions of people worldwide? Could cure some of the worst diseases and disabilities known to man? To me, that outweighs any moral scruples that arise from using human/animal hybrid embryos. Unfortunately this is something that will be latched on to by pro-life groups and religious extremists, which has no place in science or politics.
Firstly there are no assurances that this type of research will provide the kind of benefits you claim. Scientists are divided on this with many claiming that such experiments are extremely unlikely to provide major breakthroughs.
Secondly who the **** are you to decide that pro-life groups have no place in politics?
It's worth the risk. How are we supposed to know if it won't lead to benefits if it doesn't get tested?
You could use that argument to defend almost any kind of medical research or any activity that might have some benefit. The idea though that ends do not justify means is surly central to civilised society. Some things are wrong and should not be done regardless of their benefit or in this case possible benefit.
Mustafar_66 posted:
As for pro-lifers, personally I find them totally abhorrent but when I said politics I was referring to religious extremists. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
So you find me "totally abhorrent" because I consider abortion the slaughter of innocent life?
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princessin
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
5/26 4:40am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
- Date Edited:
5/26 4:54am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
princessin
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DarthKarde posted:
So you find me "totally abhorrent" because I consider abortion the slaughter of innocent life?
no
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Mustafar_66
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/27 2:47am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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DarthKarde posted:
Mustafar_66 posted:
It's worth the risk. How are we supposed to know if it won't lead to benefits if it doesn't get tested?
You could use that argument to defend almost any kind of medical research or any activity that might have some benefit. The idea though that ends do not justify means is surly central to civilised society. Some things are wrong and should not be done regardless of their benefit or in this case possible benefit.
Mustafar_66 posted:
As for pro-lifers, personally I find them totally abhorrent but when I said politics I was referring to religious extremists. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
So you find me "totally abhorrent" because I consider abortion the slaughter of innocent life?
I disagree. The research into stem cells has been highly promising. With the lack of human embryo's from which to get stem cells a problem, using human/animal hybrids is the next best way to doing it. Unfortunately it's a necessary evil in order to save and benefit millions of lives.
I consider anything that doesn't allow people the right to choose what to do to their own bodies highly objectionable. While I believe that abortion should be reduced to 20 weeks, I sure as hell would oppose any move to ban it outright. The lives of the already living are more important than that of something that isn't yet alive.
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DarthKarde
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
6/13 5:21am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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What an interesting couple of days. First David Davis causes the biggest political shock in years with his magnificent resignation and now it looks the Irish have rejected the Lisbon Treaty.
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G-FETT
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
6/13 9:53am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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I tell you what Karde, I was watching David Davis's speech live yesterday lunchtime and its been many, many years since I've felt a sense of pride in politics like that. I agreed with everything he said and I stood on my own in my living room, and applauded the TV - Crazy, eh? 
So, will Labour stand a candidate in H&H? Or will they hide behind Murdochs money? 
As for the Irish rejecting Lisbon - Good on them! Not that it'll make much differance. Brown has already said he's going to press on with ratifying the treaty. 
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I felt a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror. Then were suddenly silenced.
The Saga returns; August 15th 2008.
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DarthKarde
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
6/13 10:43am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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G-FETT posted:
I tell you what Karde, I was watching David Davis's speech live yesterday lunchtime and its been many, many years since I've felt a sense of pride in politics like that. I agreed with everything he said and I stood on my own in my living room, and applauded the TV - Crazy, eh?
I would like to think that he has done something very special that will make a major change to politics in this country. I am sure that it is right thing to do, I just don't know what effect it will have.
G-FETT posted:
So, will Labour stand a candidate in H&H? Or will they hide behind Murdochs money?
Good question. I am sure that they don't want to stand but if they don't they will effectively be letting Kelvin MacKenzie and The Sun speak for them which is something which they wouldn't want. I suppose they would like to find a non political figure, an retired chief constable or a terrorist victim to stand for them.
G-FETT posted:
As for the Irish rejecting Lisbon - Good on them! Not that it'll make much differance. Brown has already said he's going to press on with ratifying the treaty.
It makes every difference. The treaty cannot come into force unless all 27 members ratify it.
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G-FETT
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
6/13 11:17am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
- Date Edited:
6/13 11:18am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
G-FETT
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Yeah, you get the feeling something historic has happened this week, but at the moment its a job to work out what. It'll be interesting to see the opinion polls and find out how Davis's storming out is playing with the British public.
Do you think David Davis may break away from the Conservatives and form a new "Freedom Party?"
On Lisbon, I read that Brown told Sarkozy he was pressing on regardless. You think its off the table for good, then?
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I felt a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror. Then were suddenly silenced.
The Saga returns; August 15th 2008.
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DarthKarde
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
6/13 11:50am
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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G-FETT posted:
Yeah, you get the feeling something historic has happened this week, but at the moment its a job to work out what. It'll be interesting to see the opinion polls and find out how Davis's storming out is playing with the British public.
Do you think David Davis may break away from the Conservatives and form a new "Freedom Party?"
No
G-FETT posted:
On Lisbon, I read that Brown told Sarkozy he was pressing on regardless. You think its off the table for good, then?
No. However it is certainly a huge setback for the project.
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G-FETT
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
6/13 12:08pm
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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David Milliband says we should carry on ratifying Lisbon.
The Tories says the whole thing should be shelved and it seems the Lib-Dems also think the game is up. Labour in denial?
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I felt a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror. Then were suddenly silenced.
The Saga returns; August 15th 2008.
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foofaspoon
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
6/14 1:10pm
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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Davis' move was extraordinary - well done!! Like Fett, I feel somethings changed, but I'm not sure what yet. The disconnect between the 'old' media and the 'new' (i.e. large sections of ordinary people) has been staggering.
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Don't worry, i've heard it ALL before. No honestly. Really!!!
I'm British!!!
Now sit sown and tell me ALL about it. But not that bit. No, or that, and... REALLY?
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DarthKarde
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
6/14 1:31pm
Subject:
RE: 2008 - A Big Year for British Politics
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foofaspoon posted:
Davis' move was extraordinary - well done!! Like Fett, I feel somethings changed, but I'm not sure what yet. The disconnect between the 'old' media and the 'new' (i.e. large sections of ordinary people) has been staggering.
I think the big question now will be how high profile a campaign can Davis run. Can he keep in the news cycle for 3 or 4 weeks and spark a real public debate on the issues that he clearly feels so strong about.
It will also be a test of David Cameron. He will understandably be hating this as it's out of his control but if he is brave enough to properly support this move (or at very least keep the critics quiet) he has a tremendous opportunity. So far he has played the political game and took advantages of the governments weakness but this is a real chance to lead public opinion and smash the authoritarian big government mindset. If he plays his cards right the keys to Downing Street will be his for sure and with a bumper majority as well.
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