Jedi Council Forums - Whats Going on In N.C. ?

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Author	Topic: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
LostOnHoth Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 5/10/05 8:10pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ? - Date Edited: 5/10/05 8:12pm (1 edits total) Edited By: LostOnHoth
	No. You do not have the right, you have the ability. There is a big difference between the two. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you have a right to do so, nor that you should do so. I don't see the difference, I think we're just talking semantics - the 'right' the 'ability'. Is there a moral prohibition against judging someone or is there a legal prohibition? I am just a property lawyer but I assure you there is no legal prohibition. So you must be talking about a moral prohibition. Morality is necessarily subjective, so I must disagree with you that I don't have the right to judge. Like I said, whether I am justified or correct is a judgement call for others, but don't try and tell me that I have no right to judge, because I do and so do you. But anyway - off topic so I'll move on. -----signature----- 'Our enemies are innovative and resourceful and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - George W Bush
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Jabba-wocky Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 5/10/05 8:11pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	I would just say KK's right on the civics part, and reiterate that if they are doing this because they truly believe it represents sin, then it's fine. But I do want to address Underpaid's general line of logic, because although common, I've never understood it. People vote the way they do for a variety of different reasons, so how can you judge them on any but the issues they voted on? Otherwise you have to judge them on every single issue. And since most every candidate with a reasonable chance of winning is in disagreement with some point of God's word, wouldn't that essentially imply that voting is, in practice, a sinful activity for Christians? It's not as if voting for the "less sinful" candidate is valid, after all. -----signature----- ays Darius the king: 8 of my family (there were) who were formerly kings; I am the ninth (9); long aforetime we are kings. All Hail His Excellency, Barack Obama Roma vincit Tearing Up a Lane (TERRIN UP A LAAAANE!!!)
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Kimball_Kinnison Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/10/05 8:17pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	I don't see the difference, I think we're just talking semantics - the 'right' the 'ability'. A bit of an extreme example, but it demonstrates the point: I have the ability to kill someone, but that doesn't mean that I have the right to do so. Even in the absence of laws forbidding murder, it still does not give me the right to kill someone (except in defense of my own rights). Like I said, whether I am justified or correct is a judgement call for others, but don't try and tell me that I have no right to judge, because I do and so do you. Since you took to quoting scripture at me earlier, do you accept the teachings of Christ or not? If so, then you should recognize that you shouldn't judge others like that: JUDGE not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. You have no right to sit in judgement over another person, especially in saying whether what they are doing is right or wrong, whether it is in keeping with God's will or not. You just don't have that authority. Kimball Kinnison -----signature----- You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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LostOnHoth Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 5/10/05 8:18pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ? - Date Edited: 5/10/05 8:25pm (3 edits total) Edited By: LostOnHoth
	Did I quote scripture? OK, you are talking about rights and prohibitions derived from scripture. Thanks for clarifying that. No I'm not a christian myself but I understand your point, although we were discussing the 'right' versus the 'ability' to sit in judgement of someone, rather than commit murder which is clearly a crime. What strikes me as callous is the policy to exclude, expel and reject people from their church. It's that callousness that strikes me as being contradictory to what christianity is all about. -----signature----- 'Our enemies are innovative and resourceful and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - George W Bush
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severian28 Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 5/10/05 8:23pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ? - Date Edited: 5/10/05 8:29pm (1 edits total) Edited By: severian28
	I dont personally prescribe to any religion despite my ( or because ) of my upbringing but thats not the point. This isnt right. It was never this way. And I cant help thinking that this just another move by the Christian Right to take over this country - and you traditional Republicans support it only because it gets you the win and not once realizing that it is NO LONGER YOUR PARTY. " You have no right to sit in judgement over another person, especially in saying whether what they are doing is right or wrong, whether it is in keeping with God's will or not. You just don't have that authority." Thats total crap. Your doing it right now. You have about as much insight into God as I do, or what his will or isnt. We judge people every single day of our lives. Your wrong about this Kinnison. You'll never admit it. Thats fine. But you are wrong. -----signature----- " Bring the sled " - Al Swearengen " Dying all the time. Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind. Aint life unkind? " - The Rolling Stones
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Underpaid_Soldier Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 5/10/05 8:25pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ? - Date Edited: 5/10/05 8:28pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Underpaid_Soldier
	Quote - Jabba-Wocky: "But I do want to address Underpaid's general line of logic, because although common, I've never understood it. People vote the way they do for a variety of different reasons, so how can you judge them on any but the issues they voted on? Otherwise you have to judge them on every single issue." I completely understand that, and we have to becareful too. Though I would assume that many who did vote for John Kerry, supported abortion. Quote - Jabba-Wocky: "And since most every candidate with a reasonable chance of winning is in disagreement with some point of God's word, wouldn't that essentially imply that voting is, in practice, a sinful activity for Christians? It's not as if voting for the "less sinful" candidate is valid, after all." I'm not sure how it is with other denominations or religions but, at least with the Catholic Church: the canidate who is pro-life gains a large lead. Of course, it's another situation if one canidate was anti-abortion but turned out to be the next Adolf Hitler, that would be different. Being anti-abortion, anti-EMBRYO stem cell research, anti-euthanasia, anti-homosexual marriage, and anti-cloning (and anti-capital punishment) can win you the election amongst the entire Catholic (orthodox) community. The Catholic Church believes that issues regarding to the sanctity of human life are extremely important, even if it means sacrificing some benefits. Even though George W. Bush may be pro-capital punishment, John Kerry had more strikes against him (pro-abortion, pro-embryo stem cell, pro-homosexual marriage?) EDIT: We could ultimately not vote, but we have too. Why? Because if we don't, then someone who's worse will have more of a chance to get into office. -----signature----- I am way underpaid... yep... yes I am... I came, I saw, I returned from Celebration 3. Life is odd. FanForce "Commonwealth Cantina" Richmond, VA.
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severian28 Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 5/10/05 8:31pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ? - Date Edited: 5/10/05 8:40pm (1 edits total) Edited By: severian28
	" Though I would assume that many who did vote for John Kerry, supported abortion. " No offense, but thats a wild assumption. " Even though George W. Bush may be pro-capital punishment, John Kerry had more strikes against him (pro-abortion, pro-embryo stem cell, pro-homosexual marriage?) " Its extremely scary that we live in a country where any of those things, given context, would be considered a strike against a person. God never says anything about any of those things. This is men trying to control society. -----signature----- " Bring the sled " - Al Swearengen " Dying all the time. Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind. Aint life unkind? " - The Rolling Stones
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Underpaid_Soldier Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 5/10/05 8:37pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	Quote - LostOnHoth: "What strikes me as callous is the policy to exclude, expel and reject people from their church. It's that callousness that strikes me as being contradictory to what christianity is all about." In some cases it is contradictory, but it ultimately depends on the reason. For example, kicking someone out of a church simply because they prefer rock music over country, would be absolutely stupid; but, removing someone from a congregation because he/she supports something that is gravely against the beliefs of the church, is leginimate. Christ Himself ate with prostitutes, thieves, tax collectors, and etc. But did He encourage that behavior, or permit His disciples to participate in such activities? -----signature----- I am way underpaid... yep... yes I am... I came, I saw, I returned from Celebration 3. Life is odd. FanForce "Commonwealth Cantina" Richmond, VA.
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Underpaid_Soldier Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 5/10/05 8:38pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ? - Date Edited: 5/10/05 8:52pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Underpaid_Soldier
	Severian28, there's a lot of people who support abortion. EDIT: Quote - Severian28: "I dont personally prescribe to any religion despite my ( or because ) of my upbringing but thats not the point. This isnt right. It was never this way. And I cant help thinking that this just another move by the Christian Right to take over this country - and you traditional Republicans support it only because it gets you the win and not once realizing that it is NO LONGER YOUR PARTY." I wouldn't say that, the Church has been involved with politics through the centuries. Politics are a serious issue, the people we elect are our representivies, so of course the Church will encourage the faithful to vote for a type of person who would most accurately represent them. It's the same reason why you go out to vote: to pick someone who agrees with you the most. Even though I currently support the Republican party, this doesn't mean I'm a die-hard. It all depends on the politics of each party and it's politicans. Quote - Severian28: "Its extremely scary that we live in a country where any of those things, given context, would be considered a strike against a person. God never says anything about any of those things. This is men trying to control society." BECAUSE HALF OF THOSE THINGS DID NOT EXIST BACK THEN. And the other half are addressed directly and indirectly in Sacred Scripture (and especially in Sacred Tradition), but it's not clear-cut. You won't find the words "abortion is evil", it's pieced together. -----signature----- I am way underpaid... yep... yes I am... I came, I saw, I returned from Celebration 3. Life is odd. FanForce "Commonwealth Cantina" Richmond, VA.
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severian28 Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 5/10/05 8:45pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	Yeah, I know - Im one of them - but its still a wild assumption that any given person that supported Kerry supported abortion. Furthermore what right does anyone have - priest or otherwise - to make that wild assumption about a person based on a vote, expand that into what they think a persons like based solely on who he or she voted for and then kick them out of their own church? This is really a no brainer. Im goin home, see you guys later. -----signature----- " Bring the sled " - Al Swearengen " Dying all the time. Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind. Aint life unkind? " - The Rolling Stones
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Underpaid_Soldier Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 5/10/05 8:54pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	Severian28, I only said "many", not everyone. -----signature----- I am way underpaid... yep... yes I am... I came, I saw, I returned from Celebration 3. Life is odd. FanForce "Commonwealth Cantina" Richmond, VA.
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DeathStar1977 Registered: Jan '03	Date Posted: 5/10/05 8:55pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ? - Date Edited: 5/10/05 9:14pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DeathStar1977
	KK You don't believe that voting for John Kerry is a sin, but there are those who do (because of issues such as abortion, gay marriage, and other social issues). It's not your place to tell them that they are wrong... I agree with OWM that you are going off topic. That said, I have EVERY RIGHT to voice my opinion regarding this. If the church chooses to listen, fine. If not so be it. But it IS 'my place to tell them that they are wrong' if that is indeed what I believe. IMO what the church is doing is absurd, retarded, idoitic, ridiculous...and so forth. If they are breaking laws, they should be punished according to said laws. If not, then they shouldn't. But I damn will tell them that they are wrong if thats what I believe.
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Obi-Wan McCartney Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 5/10/05 9:25pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	Yeah, you said it Deathstar! (Especially the part about agreeing with me!) -----signature----- God Bless J-Rod's Wife! Obi-Wan McCartney: Model Forum Member since 1999! America's Beatles are far better than England's precious Rolling Stones
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Jansons_Funny_Twin Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 5/10/05 9:33pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	It is an internal and private matter. Wrong. Being a religious organization, the church in question is exempt from taxes. This is, of course, contingent on it not acting as a political organization and telling people who to vote for. As a taxpayer, it is my concern who does and does not get exempted from taxes, and as a taxpayer, I demand that any such organization be forced to pay taxes, as it has stepped over the boundry by endorsing one candidate over the other. So no, it is not "an internal and private matter," it is a public matter that must be rectified. b4k4^2 -----signature----- "GAIUS H. CHRIST!" - My younger brother. "you guys, you're so cute with your anal rape and man love" - lexu For Khaz Modan! "IGNORE ME!"
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Kimball_Kinnison Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/10/05 9:44pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	So no, it is not "an internal and private matter," it is a public matter that must be rectified. Then your concern should be limited only to whether they maintain their tax-exempt status. Who they choose to allow as members beyond that is none of your concern. I see this more and more these days. People who on one hand preach "tolerance" and "live and let live" turn around and try to insert themselves into the private affairs of people and organizations. It's not ok for the government to stick its nose into the affairs of two people in their bedroom, but it's just fine and dandy for the government to interfere with private beliefs or organizations. If you want to protect privacy, then don't do a half-way job of it. This is a private matter. If the people who were disfellowshipped file a complaint, then the government is fully justified in investigating it and revoking the tax-exempt status. Beyond that, it is absolutely no business of your's or anyone else's. It is a private and internal matter. Kimball Kinnison -----signature----- You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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