Jedi Council Forums - Whats Going on In N.C. ?

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Author	Topic: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
DeathStar1977 Registered: Jan '03	Date Posted: 5/10/05 10:58pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ? - Date Edited: 5/10/05 11:02pm (2 edits total) Edited By: DeathStar1977
	KK It's not ok for the government to stick its nose into the affairs of two people in their bedroom, but it's just fine and dandy for the government to interfere with private beliefs or organizations. What are you talking about? If you are impying that this supposed 'government interference' means banning churches from forming their own beliefs...hardly anyone is suggesting that. People can feel free to form their own personal beliefs about homosexuality, but IMO homosexuals (all consenting adults for that matter) should indeed have their privacy kept free from government interference. Churches too. Unless I am mistaken, this thread isn't about whether this church CAN do what it is doing (aside from whether it is 'illegal' in terms of abusing its tax-exempt status), but what WE THINK about what they are doing. Who they choose to allow as members beyond that is none of your concern. But he is certainly free to express his opinion. Ashlee Simpson has a fan club (a private organization): http://www.teenmusic.com/artist.asp?a_id=168 Guess what? I think she sucks. Its a free country. And she has every right to earn a living doing what shes doing. But I still think she is god-awful. And I have every right to express that opinion.
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Jansons_Funny_Twin Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 5/10/05 11:08pm Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ? - Date Edited: 5/10/05 11:12pm (4 edits total) Edited By: Jansons_Funny_Twin
	Then your concern should be limited only to whether they maintain their tax-exempt status. Who they choose to allow as members beyond that is none of your concern. To borrow a page from your own book, this is a straw man fallacy. For me, the real beef really is only about their campaigning for a candidate and their tax exempt status. Have I said that they cannot exclude whoever they want? All I said on that matter was that they are hypocritical. You, sir, need to stop putting arguments in my mouth, and stick to your own. EDIT: Color added for effect. b4k4^2 -----signature----- "GAIUS H. CHRIST!" - My younger brother. "you guys, you're so cute with your anal rape and man love" - lexu For Khaz Modan! "IGNORE ME!"
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ObiKnyt Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 5/11/05 3:50am Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	I didn't know about the incident in CO with the priest and the eucharist, but in a sense I can relate because the Archbishop of STL (where I was born and raised and tend to keep tabs on), has stuck his nose in politics more than once, saying he'd deny Kerry communion because of his pro-choice stance. He's also said something along the lines of those who are pro-choice Catholics should go to confession before they recieve the sacrament. But how about those such as myself, who did vote for Kerry, but has no real opinion on the issue of abortion? I mean I voted for Kerry for his stances on -other- issues, and forbid there be more than the abortion issue. To the discussion at hand, I read this article on CNN last night, and to say I'm digusted by this preacher's actions is mild. That is very wrong, especially considered some of the 9 had been attending Church services at this particular church for 20-30 years or so. His resigning is the right thing to do IMHO Seriously too, I am a firm believer, that church and state (hence religion and politics), should stay -seperate- as the Constitution says, the speration of church and state. They both tend to conflict with the other. Mind you now, the history person I am, waaaaaaaaaaay back in the day...before say the industrial era, church and state were tied most of the time, what happened in one effected the other...Kings and Emperors were crowned by the Pope (the Holy Roman Emperor for example), Henry VIII's founding of a new faith b/c he didn't get what he wanted. 2 of many example my early morning mind can come up with lol... Good thread guys
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Kimball_Kinnison Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/11/05 4:51am Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	Unless I am mistaken, this thread isn't about whether this church CAN do what it is doing (aside from whether it is 'illegal' in terms of abusing its tax-exempt status), but what WE THINK about what they are doing. If this thread is meant only to bash that church for their actions, then it should have been locked almost immediately. The Senate isn't here to simply provide one-sided "discussions" of issues. But he is certainly free to express his opinion. That is very funny. Go look in a thread on homosexuality, abortion, or any other controversial social subject. When someone on the "right" expresses an opinion (such as claiming that homosexuality is a sin), they immediately get jumped on and told things like "what happens between two people who love each other is none of your business". They are yelled at not to judge others, and so forth. It is pure hypocrisy to turn around and do the exact oppositein a case like this. I haven't said that he isn't free to express his opinion, but that it is none of his business. No one has argued that they shouldn't lose their tax-exempt status. In fact, I have agreed several times that if they broke the law it should be revoked. That doesn't change the fact that it's no one's business who they allow as members except for their own. Kimball Kinnison -----signature----- You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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Fire_Ice_Death Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 5/11/05 5:22am Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	I think that's more because it's not a rational opinion, not that they're expressing it. And for all intents and purposes most of the 'right's opinions on these message boards haven't been what I'd call...sane. Especially when comparing abortion to the dark side of the Force. -----signature----- A European says: I can't understand this, what's wrong with me? An American says: I can't understand this, what's wrong with him? - Terry Pratchett i.hada.field.AD But now that I'm older, My heart's colder, And I can see that it's a lie...
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Kimball_Kinnison Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/11/05 5:43am Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	I think that's more because it's not a rational opinion, not that they're expressing it. And for all intents and purposes most of the 'right's opinions on these message boards haven't been what I'd call...sane. Especially when comparing abortion to the dark side of the Force. And there are those on the other side who would say the same about your opinions. That's basically saying that your opinions are better than everyone else's, so your opinions should be protected but others' shouldn't. Kimball Kinnison -----signature----- You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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Fire_Ice_Death Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 5/11/05 5:56am Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ? - Date Edited: 5/11/05 5:57am (1 edits total) Edited By: Fire_Ice_Death
	Not better than everyone else's, just based more in reality. Seriously, have you read some of the opinions you're defending with your statements? They're daffy opinions. "See Palpatine says this about the dark side. And since abortion is not natural that means it's of the dark side. And I'm right--I won't bother to post any proof or show a rational basis for my argument. But rest assured I'm right because I say I am." My positions may be distasteful to conservatives, and even I'll admit some of my stances are occasionally off=kilter, but in no way do I ever not have a realistic basis for my views. -----signature----- A European says: I can't understand this, what's wrong with me? An American says: I can't understand this, what's wrong with him? - Terry Pratchett i.hada.field.AD But now that I'm older, My heart's colder, And I can see that it's a lie...
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Kimball_Kinnison Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/11/05 6:34am Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	Not better than everyone else's, just based more in reality. Seriously, have you read some of the opinions you're defending with your statements? They're daffy opinions. Since when does someone's right to an opinion based on your perception of whether it is based in reality? Again, there are many people who disagree with you who would claim that your views are not based in reality. Other than the fact that one is your opinion and the other is not, how can you differentiate between the two? Kimball Kinnison -----signature----- You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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cal_silverstar Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 5/11/05 8:20am Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	Not better than everyone else's, just based more in reality. Seriously, have you read some of the opinions you're defending with your statements? They're daffy opinions. That's kinda the same thing as saying your opinions are better than anyone else's, don't you think FID? -----signature----- I'm gonna miss Bush...isms. I write reviews and editorials for http://www.rrbgames.com
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Fire_Ice_Death Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 5/11/05 8:45am Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	No, it's not. I'm going by personal experience. Opinions are fine and all, but there are some wrong-headed opinions that should not be tolerated. It's like saying blacks are inferior, no one disputes that that's wrong. But you can still hold it as an opinion. I'm still working up a response to KK, btw. So don't think I've forgotten. -----signature----- A European says: I can't understand this, what's wrong with me? An American says: I can't understand this, what's wrong with him? - Terry Pratchett i.hada.field.AD But now that I'm older, My heart's colder, And I can see that it's a lie...
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Obi-Wan McCartney Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 5/11/05 8:48am Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	Kimball, again I think you are unnecessarily derailing this thread. But it's good to see you don't have a problem with them losing their tax-exempt status. People, looking at this story, don't you think it's possible this isn't about a church's right to determine membership, but about the actions of an overzealous and maverick priest who bastardized his church's teachings? I'm pretty sure the priest in question has recanted and has allowed the 9 democrats back in because higher ups in the church hierarchy have admonished him. Since when does one priest get to singlehandidly determine everything about a church? What if the priest abuses his authority? I mean, what if a Catholic Priest did the same, wouldn't we have the right to state out OPINION that that priest abused his authority, even if we weren't Catholic? And then there would be the fact that perhaps the higher up Catholic priests would admonish the lower priest for abusing his authority. Same with this case. It appears the priest was overstepping his authority, and he will be dealt with accordingly by the Church. -----signature----- God Bless J-Rod's Wife! Obi-Wan McCartney: Model Forum Member since 1999! America's Beatles are far better than England's precious Rolling Stones
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Kimball_Kinnison Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/11/05 9:01am Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ? - Date Edited: 5/11/05 9:04am (1 edits total) Edited By: Kimball_Kinnison
	People, looking at this story, don't you think it's possible this isn't about a church's right to determine membership, but about the actions of an overzealous and maverick priest who bastardized his church's teachings? I'm pretty sure the priest in question has recanted and has allowed the 9 democrats back in because higher ups in the church hierarchy have admonished him. But, OWM, since when is it your place to tell him what his church's teachings are or should be? If he has overstepped his bounds, then that is a matter for the church hierarchy to deal with, not for outside forces. It is still an internal matter. Same with this case. It appears the priest was overstepping his authority, and he will be dealt with accordingly by the Church. I bolded a key part of your statement. Yes, if he overstepped his authority, he should be dealt with by the Church. Unless you are part of the leadership of that church, it's not your job to see that he is "dealt with". The problem with having the whole world (note the hyperbole) get involved in such an internal matter is that it then creates the impression that if you don't like something about a specific church, you are perfectly justified in trying to use public opinion to change it. You can see this with the attempts to get the Catholic Church to accept women as priests, or allow married priests. You can see this in the many groups trying to force churches to condone gay marriage. You can see this in many other areas (birth control, abortion, etc). The church should not be simply based on public opinion, nor should it be shifting its teachings because some people don't like them. If a doctrinal change has to be made, it should be done in the manner that God directs, not by using public opinion. It's not a matter for the rest of the world to get involved with. It is between the leadership of the church and God. If you don't like the teachings of that church, you are free to find or start one that you do agree with. The church is not there to bring God's will in line with Man's, but to bring Man in line with God's will. Kimball Kinnison -----signature----- You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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Obi-Wan McCartney Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 5/11/05 10:11am Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	I can't believe I'm hearing these words Kimball Kinneson. What about a little concept called FREEDOM? No law is being used, no government action against the church. Since when is it wrong for the people to speak out in public about something they want to speak out about? The church can do whatever they want. We can discuss whether or not we agree with the Church's actions all we want, no one is saying we can FORCE the Church to do anything. The fact that the Catholic Church holds true to its doctrine in the face of public opinion means the Church has faith in their beliefs enough. I mean, why are you so bent out of shape for simply discussing the decision the priest made? Do you think that if it were YOUR church, that you would have no right to an opinion? I think that's what we're trying to discuss, not whether or the Church can do whatever it wants. IT can. BUt it deserves no shield from people's first amendment rights to press. They are free to practice under that same amendment. I personally think it's quite wrong for this priest to kick out loyal flock who simply voted for a democrat. -----signature----- God Bless J-Rod's Wife! Obi-Wan McCartney: Model Forum Member since 1999! America's Beatles are far better than England's precious Rolling Stones
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Kimball_Kinnison Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/11/05 10:18am Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ?
	I can't believe I'm hearing these words Kimball Kinneson. What about a little concept called FREEDOM? What about the little concept called PRIVACY? It is an internal matter. Just like it isn't a Baptist's place to demand that the Catholic Church change its teachings or membership policies (such as what baptisms it will accept), it's no business of anyone except the church involved what their membership policies are. That includes basing it on political beliefs or affiliation. I mean, why are you so bent out of shape for simply discussing the decision the priest made? Do you think that if it were YOUR church, that you would have no right to an opinion? I think that's what we're trying to discuss, not whether or the Church can do whatever it wants. IT can. BUt it deserves no shield from people's first amendment rights to press. They are free to practice under that same amendment. I haven't said that you can't have an opinion. I've said that it isn't your place to poke your nose into the private affairs of a church. It's not your place to dictate to a church what their beliefs should be, nor is it your place to try and force them to change their beliefs. That is wrong. You are free to speak out, but all that does is demonstrate thatyou have no respect for others' privacy, nor for their beliefs. Why, then, should others respect your beliefs? This entire thread is much ado about a private matter. Nothing more. Kimball Kinnison -----signature----- You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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IkritMan Registered: Sep '02	Date Posted: 5/11/05 11:06am Subject: RE: Whats Going on In N.C. ? - Date Edited: 5/11/05 11:13am (1 edits total) Edited By: IkritMan
	Dark_Lady_Jada posted on 5/9/05 10:54pm What it comes down to is that the church shouldn't be dictating an individual's politics. I agree, and I'm really glad that it's not happening. Kimball_Kinnison posted on 5/11/05 10:18am I haven't said that you can't have an opinion. I've said that it isn't your place to poke your nose into the private affairs of a church. It's not your place to dictate to a church what their beliefs should be, nor is it your place to try and force them to change their beliefs. That is wrong. It's not wrong to merely discuss your views on something. For instance, you say it's "wrong" to tell "a church what their beliefs should be," but right now, you're telling OWM what he shouldn't be doing. You're also telling him what's right and what's wrong; wouldn't that be considering "wrong"? After all, he is entitled to his opinion. You are free to speak out, but all that does is demonstrate thatyou have no respect for others' privacy, nor for their beliefs. Why, then, should others respect your beliefs? But you're speaking out against his speaking out! He does have a respect for others' privacy, but this church decision affected people who then made the story public--and once it's public, it's public. Now we have free debate over whether is was consitutional or unconstitutional, right or wrong. He didn't actively "poke his nose" into the church's business--the church's business was not discreet or secretive in the least! And that's the assembly's problem, not OWM's. This entire thread is much ado about a private matter. Nothing more. I agree, but I also think that criticizing someone for merely debating a subject is a tad harsh. -----signature----- Six imams removed from a US Airways flight from Minneapolis to Phoenix are calling on Muslims to boycott the airline. If only we could get Muslims to boycott all airlines, we could dispense with airport security altogether.
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