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Author Topic: Official Forum Rules and Policy Feedback Thread
Obi-Wan McCartney 
Registered: Aug '99
13616_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/20/05 9:36pm Subject: RE: Senate Floor Questions and Clarifications Thread
I was banned because I spelled Kimball Kinnison with an e, as in Kimball Kinneson. Apparently, the mods felt I did this on purpose, and that I was baiting Kimball, and since baiting is against the rules, I was banned.


 

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LostOnHoth 
Registered: Feb '00
43871_Stormtrooper Loser
Date Posted: 11/20/05 9:51pm Subject: RE: Senate Floor Questions and Clarifications Thread
Here's a definition I found on the net which I find appropriate:

"petty"

adjective

1 petty, small-minded

contemptibly narrow in outlook; "petty little comments"; "disgusted with their small-minded pettiness"

2 fiddling, footling, lilliputian, little, Mickey_Mouse, niggling, piddling, piffling, petty, picayune, trivial

(informal terms) small and of little importance; "a fiddling sum of money"; "a footling gesture"; "our worries are lilliputian compared with those of countries that are at war"; "a little (or small) matter"; "Mickey Mouse regulations"; "a dispute over nig

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/petty

 

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Ender_Sai 
Title: Manager Emeritus
 Registered: Feb '01
44324_Kyle Katarn
Date Posted: 11/20/05 9:51pm Subject: RE: Senate Floor Questions and Clarifications Thread
You forgot to mention I told you in PM's beforehand that in such cases, where baiting can be established (as I did), that per MS policy a baiter is banned, and the baitee is warned.

You also should mention how many chances I gave you, pre- and post-ban. If you're interested in being fair...

E_S

 

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Ender_Sai 
Title: Manager Emeritus
 Registered: Feb '01
44324_Kyle Katarn
Date Posted: 11/20/05 9:57pm Subject: RE: Senate Floor Questions and Clarifications Thread - Date Edited: 11/20/05 10:10pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Ender_Sai
LostOnHoth posted:
Here's a definition I found on the net which I find appropriate:

"petty"

adjective

1 petty, small-minded

contemptibly narrow in outlook; "petty little comments"; "disgusted with their small-minded pettiness"

2 fiddling, footling, lilliputian, little, Mickey_Mouse, niggling, piddling, piffling, petty, picayune, trivial

(informal terms) small and of little importance; "a fiddling sum of money"; "a footling gesture"; "our worries are lilliputian compared with those of countries that are at war"; "a little (or small) matter"; "Mickey Mouse regulations"; "a dispute over nig

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/petty


That's fantastic, because after all OWM would make the most objective observer in this.

Does this website also have "subjective", whilst we're playing word games?

Hmm, maybe I should have stayed in law so I could have had the notion of making a decision after I hear both sides (rather than before) beaten out of me, just like you seem to be employing to spectacular effect... plain

You know what, I'm not even going to bother explaining myself on this. I did my job, I did it well and if you chose to take the side of OWM at face value, well done. Yep, we're all petty fascists.

"O judgement, thou art fled to brutish beasts and men hath lost their reason!"

E_S

 

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KnightWriter 
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
 Registered: Nov '01
39907_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/20/05 10:14pm Subject: RE: Senate Floor Questions and Clarifications Thread
I can vouch for Ender's level of concern and objectivity here. I know he tried to do what he felt was best, and definitely didn't rush into it, or do it thoughtlessly.

I think it's more than a simple situation, and I'd also like to add taht discussing bans in public is generally frowned upon in most JC forums. Perhaps the Senate is a bit more lenient in that department (which would reflect on the Senate moderators).

 

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LostOnHoth 
Registered: Feb '00
43871_Stormtrooper Loser
Date Posted: 11/20/05 10:19pm Subject: RE: Senate Floor Questions and Clarifications Thread - Date Edited: 11/20/05 10:21pm (2 edits total) Edited By: LostOnHoth
E_S - this is not a legal matter nor a court of law so I am not playing lawyer. Just an observer.

Banning someone because they spell another member's name wrong, even intentionally and after they have been warned about it, seems petty to me. It's trivial. If it upsets KK then he is being petty and trivial IMO. For the record, my comment was directed at KK rather then E_S.

That's just my opinion. For what it's worth. If there is more to it and OWM is not representing the situation accurately then it's not worth much.

 

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Obi-Wan McCartney 
Registered: Aug '99
13616_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/20/05 10:44pm Subject: RE: Senate Floor Questions and Clarifications Thread - Date Edited: 11/20/05 10:56pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Obi-Wan McCartney
He did warn me. See, I had complained about Kimball getting upset with me for not spelling his name right, the quote from the last page was the one I had a problem with.

But I never once believed that ES actually believed I intentionally misspelled the name, which I didn't do.

I don't want ES to get flustered over it, he is doing what he thinks is best, and part of his reasoning was based in good faith. I only discuss it here because ES seemed to say it was ok in response to Losts' question.

I've PM'd him about it, because I don't believe it has been established that I did it on purpose OR that there is ample evidence to suggest so, because for one, I DIDN'T do it on purpose, and I can't find it. There is a single instance like six months ago I found where he corrected my misspelling, but that's it.

So I just find it hard to believe anyone would think I did it intentionally, especially because I know for a FACT I didn't do it intentionally.

So, knowing I didn't do it on purpose, and knowing that the rule is that the baitor typically gets a ban, and the baitee who baits back gets a warning, what happens to the baitee if the baitor didn't actually bait, but the baitee only PERCEIVED a baiting?

More succinctly, if a person believes they are being baited, and then baits, are they considered an original baitor or treated as someone who had genuinely been baited? thinking

EDIT: Don't get sore, ES. I'm not sore at you. I just enjoy having discussions and learning points of view, human nature, etc. Regardless, I KNOW you made the wrong call on this one because I KNOW that I didn't misspell his name on purpose. I'm just interested in finding out how you honestly came to that mistaken conclusion. I don't hold it against you, I am just honestly puzzled because I can't find all these past posts you speak of. Admit it ES, you love 'teh drama!!1!' (is that right?)

 

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Ender_Sai 
Title: Manager Emeritus
 Registered: Feb '01
44324_Kyle Katarn
Date Posted: 11/21/05 6:13am Subject: RE: Senate Floor Questions and Clarifications Thread - Date Edited: 11/21/05 7:11am (1 edits total) Edited By: Ender_Sai
A few things:

Whilst people frequently called me Endor and I made fun of them for it, I can see it being taken as a sign of disrespect. I remeber Vezner getting offended because I called him "Vez-na", trying to make it sound like I was saying it with emphasis on the syllables. Some people consider it a measure of respect, some don't.

Secondly, KK didn't ask me to ban him, that was my call. It was my judgment, (and if I'm wrong I apologise), that given the history between the two, "on the basis of probability" tongue (take that lawyers!) that indeed OWM was trying to get a small rise out of KK. Now, I admitted I could have been wrong, but I didn't think so at the time and as I said, I did give OWM the advice to drop it and move on.

And OWM, frankly I ******* hate drama. You want petty? How about this entire issue. The Senate was going beautifully until recently, when a few small incidents became examples of the tyrrany of the mods. We have a thankless job to do, and all this petty pissing contest crap just gets in the way. Can we all stop behaving like utter children and stop trying to play Che Guevara vs the Man?

Awesome.

E_S

EDIT: Clarity

 

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DeathStar1977 
Registered: Jan '03
7850_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 11/21/05 9:41am Subject: RE: Senate Floor Questions and Clarifications Thread
ES

DS, DM's edit wasn't about disagreeing with the sentiment, it was about what frankly that point was producing in other people.

IMO that is other people’s problem if they can’t handle a little harsh criticism from time to time, not the fault of DM.

Is there anyone else who wants to doubt us, just so we can get it over and done with?

I don’t doubt you, or KK or Mr44, not one bit. But I will raise an issue if I feel it needs to be raised.

And furthermore, in addition to Jewish holidays, I celebrate Festivus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivus

And part of Festivus is the ‘Airing of Grievances’.

And OWM, frankly I ******* hate drama. You want petty? How about this entire issue. The Senate was going beautifully until recently, when a few small incidents became examples of the tyrrany of the mods. We have a thankless job to do, and all this petty pissing contest crap just gets in the way. Can we all stop behaving like utter children and stop trying to play Che Guevara vs the Man?

While some do behave like utter children, IMO there are certainly legitimate questions being asked. Kinda reflective of politics as a whole…the idiocy of some shouldn’t prevent the good questions and answers from being pursued.

And furthermore, how can OWM still post if he’s been banned? mischief

 

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Kimball_Kinnison 
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 11/21/05 10:16am Subject: RE: Senate Floor Questions and Clarifications Thread
Let me explain a little on my side of this entire issue.

For quite a long time, OWM has been misspelling my name. Use the search function looking for "Kinneson" to see a selection of examples over the past year, and all but one (a FanFic piece with a character named Kinneson) are from OWM or quoting something he posted. Considering the issues with the search function, those are only samples and not the entire list (Google can provide more examples).

He and I have a long and rocky relationship, with both of us having the knack of getting under the other's skin. I have asked him several times (politely) over the previous year for him to at least make an effort to spell it correctly. The repeated attempts were ignored and ineffective. Is it something minor? Yes, but he's also had a history of doing minor things to try to irritate me, ranging back years, even to before I was a mod.

After my post about which he is complaining, he and I exchanged PMs, with the last one exchanged on 11/18 at 9:40am. As of that time, it appeared to me (based upon those PMs) that we had resolved our little dispute. At about the same time, I got a PM from Ender_Sai telling me that OWM was complaining about my remark. I responded to E_S that I was PMing with OWM and trying to resolve the matter.

More than a day later, OWM made his post in this thread continuing to complain about the matter, almost 36 hours after it appeared to be resolved via PM. He was warned by Ender, and chose to ignore the warning. Ender_Sai then followed up on his warning. I didn't know anything about it until the next morning.

I had nothing to do with taking any actions against OWM, but I do support the actions he took. Regardless of the intent, if a user has repeatedly misspelled another user's name, a user with whom they have had regular conflicts, and has repeatedly ignored requests to stop, then it is entirely reasonable to believe that they are baiting the other user. MS policy does nto require that you stop and find out what the actual intent is (if you ask someone "Are you baiting that person?" the likely response will be "No" regardless of whether they really are or not), but call on the moderator to make their best judgement.

Kimball Kinnison

 

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Obi-Wan McCartney 
Registered: Aug '99
13616_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/21/05 10:27am Subject: RE: Senate Floor Questions and Clarifications Thread - Date Edited: 11/21/05 10:39am (1 edits total) Edited By: Obi-Wan McCartney
Ender, I don't know why you are getting upset.

If you made a decision you felt was correct, then were is the evidence you spoke of? Where is this evidence that demonstrates I did it on purpose?

Look, I don't feel any grave injustice was done to me, but I do know that you made a mistake and I am just curious as to why.

Where did you get the idea based on posts between me and Kimball that I would intentionally misspell his name? You told KW and posted that there was a history of this, but I can't find this exensive history of him correcting me.

Furthermore, the nature of KK's post was such that even HE didn't believe I did it on purpose. He was trying to get a "ZING!" in my insulting spelling abilities and making a condescending remark.


ES posted:
Now, I admitted I could have been wrong, but I didn't think so at the time and as I said, I did give OWM the advice to drop it and move on.


-Right, so the deal was, if I drop my complaint against Kimball's rudeness, then you wouldn't ban me? That I never did understand.


ES posted:
And OWM, frankly I ******* hate drama. You want petty? How about this entire issue. The Senate was going beautifully until recently, when a few small incidents became examples of the tyrrany of the mods. We have a thankless job to do, and all this petty pissing contest crap just gets in the way. Can we all stop behaving like utter children and stop trying to play Che Guevara vs the Man?


Oh come on man, it's all in the interests of spirited debate and consistency (see, I probably misspelled that right there!) in moderating. People can't air greviences and complain about what they perceive is unfair? How does that bother you? I think the Senate is going fine.

Maybe this is petty. But it has almost like, real world implications! It seems to me you "rushed to judgment" on whether or not I intentionally misspelled KK's name in order to "bait" him. Think of it from my perspective. I complain about a mod, and then I get banned...seems strange. Esepecially from my perspective, where I know I didn't misspell his name on purpose in order to bait him.

I would have let the matter drop, except that you claimed there was a history of me doing this to Kimball, on purpose. I can't find this post history, and I have asked you several times to produce it. Look, Im' sorry, I know you are a good guy, you have been patient with me and I appreciate that. But wouldn't you be curious?

Where is this evidence? thinking


EDIT:

KIMBALL, I am truly baffled that you believe I misspelled your name in some subtle attempt to piss you off. And in PM's, you stood by your statement, and in ES's, he just said you were his superior and there was nothing he could do.

So I decided to take it to the people, in this thread. I aired my grevience and was content to let it be the end. One thing ES also warned me about was asking you to PPOR on me misspelling your name.

So please do so. If you'll notice, when you do a search of "Kinneson," there are plenty of posts in which I misspelled your name and you said nothing, and only one instance like six months ago where you made a correction.

 

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Kimball_Kinnison 
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 11/21/05 10:42am Subject: RE: Senate Floor Questions and Clarifications Thread - Date Edited: 11/21/05 10:45am (1 edits total) Edited By: Kimball_Kinnison
Obi-Wan McCartney posted:
Furthermore, the nature of KK's post was such that even HE didn't believe I did it on purpose. He was trying to get a "ZING!" in my insulting spelling abilities and making a condescending remark.
Actually, I was trying to finally get your attention on the matter, after repeatedly asking you to stop. Asking politely didn't work. It was just ignored.

As for evidence, as I mentioned in my last post, you can try the search function to see a partial history of it. Google shows other cases. The long history combined with the repeated requests to stop leaves two options. Either you were ignoring the requests (wither intentionally or not), or you were deliberately doing it.

The history stretches back well over a year, and you can quickly find it by using the "search" link at the top of each and every page on the boards. The really interesting part part is that you used to spell it correctly.

Kimball Kinnison

EDIT: So please do so. If you'll notice, when you do a search of "Kinneson," there are plenty of posts in which I misspelled your name and you said nothing, and only one instance like six months ago where you made a correction.

I have corrected you more than once on it. The search functionhere is not the best. Google gives completely different results than the boards' seach does. I know that there are other times outside the results listed that I have corrected you on the matter.

 

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Obi-Wan McCartney 
Registered: Aug '99
13616_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/21/05 10:51am Subject: RE: Senate Floor Questions and Clarifications Thread - Date Edited: 11/21/05 10:57am (1 edits total) Edited By: Obi-Wan McCartney
Right, but even according to you, I'm a bad speller! I rely on spell check and my secretary, neither of which I have here. Sometimes I spell words right, sometimes I spell them wrong.

Secondly, I'd like to see these posts. All I can see is that I misspelled your name, and one single time over six months ago, you said "it's Kinnison, not Kinneson, please spell it right."

So perhaps, Kimball, you can post maybe three examples of your asking me to spell it right within the last six months. And if you can't, just tell me, in your honest estimation, did you REALLY believe I spelt your name wrong, or was it just a plausible defense to your needlessly antagonistic post?


KK posted:
...after repeatedly asking you to stop. Asking politely didn't work. It was just ignored.


-I checked your links, and I can't find anywhere you "repeatedly" asked me to stop, I found one instance over six months ago. Furthermore, in almost every single one of those examples from your links, I spelled your name wrong AND YOU SAID NOTHING AT ALL!

If it bothered you so much, why didn't you correct me all those times, as you claim you did?

(On a side not, one of those links was to a 1st amendment argument we were having about the scope of the 1st amendment. In it, you claimed the 1st amendment protects parental religous freedom regarding teaching of sex ed. BUt where does it say so in the constitution? Why allow such a broad reading? It's the point I've been trying to get across in the privacy discussions, that even you will read protections into the constitutions that aren't explicit if it suits your purpose, but I'll take it to the other thrad.

 

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Kimball_Kinnison 
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 11/21/05 11:11am Subject: RE: Senate Floor Questions and Clarifications Thread
OWM, why don't you let it drop? I know that Ender's told you to drop it, and all you are doing at this point is stirring up trouble. I know that he's also had to delete at least one post of yours from this thread in an attempt to protect you from further action.

I don't have time to hunt them down at this time, but I do stand by Ender's decision. Looking over even the limited history available right now, it is enough for a moderator to reasonably decide that your actions were baiting.

Kimball Kinnison

 

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Obi-Wan McCartney 
Registered: Aug '99
13616_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/21/05 1:22pm Subject: RE: Senate Floor Questions and Clarifications Thread
I'll let it drop, I just want to be clear here about a few things. Based on the fact that I have misspelled your name before, and in one instance you corrected me (but in all other instances said nothing), ES determined I was intentionally baiting you?

You were the one that told him I was baiting you, so are you honestly telling me that you felt I was intentionally baiting you? Because your PM's just seemed to indicate that "nicely" telling me didn't work, that's why you had to do so in a "hostile" manner. Doesn't sound like someone who thinks I did it on purpose.

The truth is, Kimball, if it were anyone other than you, there is no way I would have been banned for misspelling your name and reporting your overreaction. The reason I was banned was because I cited your post in this thread as something I'd like to see avoided. So unless I see the evidene, I have to assume that ES just took your word for it.

It's all good, ES, I guess you really did believe that I did it on purpose when you acted. Too bad I didn't.

 

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