Princess_Tina posted:Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:Princess_Tina posted:Well obviously you have to make it more appealing to come in by complying with the law than by not complying with it. This is exactly the part of your mentality I don't understand. Basically you're assuming that since so many people are breaking the law, the problem is with the law and not with the people breaking it. THAT'S NOT OW LAWS WORK. If the murder rate shot up in America, should the laws be changed to redefine murder in some way that all the people who are trying to kill other people can do so without breaking the law? Sure, they'd rather kill people legally, but the current laws are too restrictive (has to be either self-defense or an accident, shucks). Totally inappropriate comparison -- immigrating is not a crime if you do so lawfully.
Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:Princess_Tina posted:Well obviously you have to make it more appealing to come in by complying with the law than by not complying with it. This is exactly the part of your mentality I don't understand. Basically you're assuming that since so many people are breaking the law, the problem is with the law and not with the people breaking it. THAT'S NOT OW LAWS WORK. If the murder rate shot up in America, should the laws be changed to redefine murder in some way that all the people who are trying to kill other people can do so without breaking the law? Sure, they'd rather kill people legally, but the current laws are too restrictive (has to be either self-defense or an accident, shucks).
Princess_Tina posted:Well obviously you have to make it more appealing to come in by complying with the law than by not complying with it.
Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:Princess_Tina posted:...And I'll be perfectly honest, I don't feel like I'm welcome in that thread for the purposes of a serious, constructive discussion, because almost everybody else seems to fall on one side of the spectrum in this issue...And as it stands now, it seems like the only people who are welcome to participate in the discussion are those on one end of the spectrum of opinions of how best to solve America's immigration problem....Judging from your response to my post, you either (1) weren't paying attention to the point I was making, or (2) willfully ignored the point I was making...THAT is why people in the thread have grown hostile towards you. Not because of what you believe, but because of the fact that whereas most posters take the time to make well-reasoned posts that address the actual arguments being made by the others on the board, you have again and again provided responses that do nothing of the kind.
Princess_Tina posted:...And I'll be perfectly honest, I don't feel like I'm welcome in that thread for the purposes of a serious, constructive discussion, because almost everybody else seems to fall on one side of the spectrum in this issue...And as it stands now, it seems like the only people who are welcome to participate in the discussion are those on one end of the spectrum of opinions of how best to solve America's immigration problem.
Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:Here's the thing, DM. Your posting style has been a lot like Tina's. You don't express yourself very clearly, then you turn around and ridicule anyone who has misunderstood you. You tend not to back up your arguments, and when you are asked to do so you tend to try squirming out of it by saying something to the effect that 'everyone' knows that what you say is true. It's not a matter of, "I don't like what you're saying so I'll just ridicule your arguments." If someone is ridiculing your argument, chances are that the problem is not with what you're saying but how you're arguing it. Of course, if you're making a poor argument for something that another poster finds absolutely ludicrous, you'll get a little of both. Just as the movie forums have a "films, not fans" rule, most of us here make a solid effort to never attack the person but only the arguments. Mr44, E_S, and K_K (the 'old men' of the Senate, if you will) are three pretty distinct guys, each with their own different ideas about how the world should work. If all three of them are telling you your arguments stink, then your argument probably stinks. If even dizfactor is disagreeing with you as you criticize America, then you MIGHT reconsider your arguments.
DarthMatter posted:Maybe in the very cool "clearing house" sticky, we could also have some basics of what is reasonable debate and what is not, what to look out for. Maybe if there was an aspect of showing people how to argue in a more logical manner, then when someone says "America is crumbling", those who disagree will know how to support "America is not crumbling" as a refutation and there will be great discussion.
