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Topic:
Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Roundtable Discussion in Progress
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Fire_Ice_Death
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/17/05 7:00pm
Subject:
Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Roundtable Discussion in Progress
- Date Edited:
7/2 3:25pm (19 edits total)
Edited By:
Mr44
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As many of you know I created a thread a while back; it was to discuss Atheism and how people have come to be Atheists. And for a while this worked and it worked okay, but eventually things got too unwieldy as Atheism encompasses more than just how we’ve become Atheists. There’s more to it and the purpose (I had hoped) would be to garner a bit of understanding from people who aren’t Atheists since there are a lot of misconceptions out there. But that was the hope. It actually left the thread unfocused and I was banned for 6 months so I couldn’t have helped any way. And eventually you have what we had in that thread; personal comments, flaming, baiting, and all of this from both sides of the aisle. My intent was sadly not achieved and only created more animosity.
Now, I am starting something new, I’m going with an amphitheatre style thread and we’re going to have topics of discussion and keep things from getting out of hand. Our first topic is morality. This is a huge point of contention among the atheists and religious folk. I won’t speak for everyone, but morality (in my view) is a developed process and is passed on from your parents. And that determines how you turn out. However, some people take theirs from their peers and this is where there are some changes in their view of morality.
I’m not saying all Atheists follow this view, in fact, I’m sure there’s more than a few who don’t. But I would like everyone to post their views, mostly Atheists, but if it’s done without preaching, everyone can as well.
I want to make one thing clear for everyone—this thread is for discussion, not preaching, from both sides. If you’re going to preach your views then go somewhere else. But those who want a semi-serious discussion of Atheist views, then by all means, come on in.
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
9/17/05 7:03pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Now With 20% Less G*d!
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I definitely hope this thread goes well.
A fresh start should help  .
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"May you live all the days of your life"
"There's a special place in Hell for women who don't support other women."--Sarah Palin
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/17/05 7:10pm
Subject:
RE: Official Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Now With 20% Less G*d! (Now discussing Morals)
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I'm going to echo KW's sentiment. This is an important topic which does attract both preconceptions and controversy, but I am confident we can discuss this like mature adults.
I have a question; although many atheists are moral people, who learned morals from sources other than a Christian upbrining; would you consider it inaccurate to suggest at the core these morals are in part, Judeo-Christian (at least insofar as the influence of Judeo-Christian beliefs on Western societal development)?
E_S
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
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Nov '01
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Date Posted:
9/17/05 7:24pm
Subject:
RE: Official Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Now With 20% Less G*d! (Now discussing Morals)
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Perhaps the morals most of us are familiar with are Judeo-Christian in origin, but that doesn't do much to explain how a religion and culture like Buddhism can have a great deal of morality without developing with any of those influences.
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"May you live all the days of your life"
"There's a special place in Hell for women who don't support other women."--Sarah Palin
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/17/05 7:27pm
Subject:
RE: Official Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Now With 20% Less G*d! (Now discussing Morals)
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Excellent point. Some of you who have been here for some time will notice I don't partak ein religious/moral debates often. It's not something I think about very much, to be perfectly honest. So I'm going to defer to more learned people and see what I can take awayf rom the discussion.
E_S
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In this truth he knew himself to be.
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benkenobi151
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
9/17/05 7:37pm
Subject:
RE: Official Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Now With 20% Less G*d! (Now discussing Morals)
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Morals can come from more than just parents. They can come from culture, TV(unfortunatly), friends, school, and sometmes even other religions.
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"The Force will be with you. Always." Jedi Knight/Healer in the Jedi Trials; Master of Waldo Twin Suns Squadron 15; EUC Senator: Lead/Commander Emeritus Member of People Against Waru: Save the Hoojibs! I own StarWarsFreak444 
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Mastadge
Title:
Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
9/17/05 7:42pm
Subject:
RE: Official Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Now With 20% Less G*d! (Now discussing Morals)
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Ender_Sai, for the most part, that's not inaccurate, for several reasons. For one, because several of the "Judeo-Christian" values are several of the most universal values, values that simply make sense no matter how you slice it. For another, many of us, even if we do not consider ourselves Christian, were raised in an environment predominantly Judeo-Christian, and that certainly affected how we see and comprehend the world, even if we disagree with parts of it.
KnightWriter, there are actually theories that in those thirty years unaccounted for in Jesus' life he travelled east, which would go a long way toward explaining why so much of what he said has so much in common with eastern ways of thought.
But I'm very tired now, so I'll probably be back here tomorrow.
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To make music more intensely,
More beautifully,
More devotedly than ever before."
- Leonard Bernstein
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
9/17/05 7:52pm
Subject:
RE: Official Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Now With 20% Less G*d! (Now discussing Morals)
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KnightWriter, there are actually theories that in those thirty years unaccounted for in Jesus' life he travelled east,
Oh, I'm aware of those. All the same, however, Buddhism developed its core values system well before the existence of Jesus.
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"May you live all the days of your life"
"There's a special place in Hell for women who don't support other women."--Sarah Palin
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/17/05 8:11pm
Subject:
RE: Official Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Now With 20% Less G*d! (Now discussing Morals)
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Mastadge posted:
Ender_Sai, for the most part, that's not inaccurate, for several reasons. For one, because several of the "Judeo-Christian" values are several of the most universal values, values that simply make sense no matter how you slice it. For another, many of us, even if we do not consider ourselves Christian, were raised in an environment predominantly Judeo-Christian, and that certainly affected how we see and comprehend the world, even if we disagree with parts of it.
So basically, those views aren't uniquely Judeo-Christian but they factor predominantly in JC thought.
Does anyone hold a different view on this? That morals are derived from religion? If so, why?
E_S
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In this truth he knew himself to be.
From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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VadersLaMent
Registered:
Apr '02
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Date Posted:
9/17/05 8:25pm
Subject:
RE: Official Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Now With 20% Less G*d! (Now discussing Morals)
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I think morality is at it's most simplistic form a matter of a survival mentality. Some might conclude that morality is almost selfish since it tends to sound like the only reason you do not harm others is because they might harm you in return. That statement to me is true, there's nothing wrong with it, and without such an idea one might be considered a sociopath.
But that's not all there is to it of course. Means of survival would have been very important when global populations were much lower. A complex social system comes about where reliance is made between members of a group.
Upon the birth of a child you don't try to harm the child, you do you best to keep the child safe if for no better reason than to avoid extinction.
I think with a larger brain at our disposal we can take on a deeper and more complex meaning to all of this. We can give definition to love, we can analyze our feelings and what they mean to us and give ourselves an understanding of what sympathy is and what we see in it.
But we are not so different from animals. In a quick little search to word this out I found this list of what a few members of the non-human animal kingdom do for each other:
--Dolphins support sick or injured animals, swimming under them for hours at a time and pushing them to the surface so they can breathe.
--Wolves and wild dogs bring meat back to members of the pack not present at the kill.
--Male baboons threaten predators and cover the rear as the troop retreats.
--Gibbons and chimpanzees with food will, in response to a gesture, share their food with others of the group.
--Vampire bats regularly regurgitate blood and donate it to other members of their group who have failed to feed that night, ensuring they do not starve.(YUCK!)
--In numerous bird species, a breeding pair receives help in raising its young from other “helper” birds, who protect the nest from predators and help to feed the fledglings.
--Most mammal carnivores like wolves or dogs have a habit of not harming pack members below certain age, of opposite sex or in surrendering position (in case of some animals, the behavior exists within entire species rather than one pack).
--Vervet monkeys give alarm calls to warn fellow monkeys of the presence of predators, even though in doing so they attract attention to themselves, increasing their personal chance of being attacked.
--In social insect colonies (ants, wasps, bees and termites), sterile workers devote their whole lives to caring for the queen, constructing and protecting the nest, foraging for food, and tending the larvae. Such behaviour is maximally altruistic: sterile workers obviously do not leave any offspring of their own (so have personal fitness of zero) but their actions greatly assist the reproductive efforts of the queen.
Neat huh?
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Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God--Michael Shermer
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EnforcerSG
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
9/17/05 8:40pm
Subject:
RE: Official Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Now With 20% Less G*d! (Now discussing Morals)
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Morality is a huge issue, and the biggest problem is that no one seems to know what a moral is? Is it a rule? Is it an absolute (but what that means is also a huge question)? If they are not absolute then what happens?
Just a little exercise I think everyone should do; imagine you were writing the dictionary and you got to "moral." What would you (not Webster or dictionary.com or someone else) write as that definition?
I look at it from an action and reason stance. Everything we do we do for some reason. It may be subconscience; it could be the result of another point of view; it could be that our bodies are programed in a certain way; it could be a choice, but all in all, what we do we do for a reason. But as far as I know there is always a reason.
So, what is that reason and what is its source? Actually the source question does not really matter with how I look at morals. Basically asking it will result in an infinite 'why' set of questions (like asking someone 'why did you steal it?' and he says 'cause I am greedy.' You then ask 'why are you greedy?' and so on). So lets look at the direct reason.
Simply put, as I define it, morality is just a word that describes an action that was done primarily for selfless and non-harmful reasons. However there is no absolute-ness to that. Again, morality is just a word, and like any word it has the letters/sounds, a definition, and the 'physical' thing it represents. The word moral is in no way absolute to the other two parts; just like I could call the color of grass 'red' and the color that grass will not change.
So, should we talk about good and bad now? 
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If you don't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say.
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Sometimes the answer is no.
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motisfortiva
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
9/17/05 8:43pm
Subject:
RE: Official Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Now With 20% Less G*d! (Now discussing Morals)
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Beautiful is more like it. Life. People obviously have a bad habit of taking this all for granted, and it shows from day to day. I wish I could say more ATM but it just not possible. 
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You dont find God... God finds you.
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EnforcerSG
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
9/17/05 9:25pm
Subject:
RE: Official Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Now With 20% Less G*d! (Now discussing Morals)
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This is a new thread and although I may be overstepping my bounds as just some random guy, there are a few obvious things I want to through out there.
I say let the theists come on in and ask all the question they can and want. If they come however, they should come to understand the atheistic view, question it and come to conclusions, but not to defeat it (if through questioning and understanding it, some irresolvable contradiction is found, then that is fine, but it should not be the purpose to prove atheism wrong). Also there should be several things that are understood for there to be any useful discussion.
The first is that for any question to even belong here it pretty much must assume that there is no god at all. That carries along with it some baggage (and it is hard to put into words but I will try). Many arguments I have heard is that the world could not be as it is (or it could not exist at all) without a god. Any questions about atheism is going to have to assume that the world as is can exist without god. If you do not believe so and want to discuss it later (when morals and whatever else is next is done), then you better be very darn clear how it cannot be.
Second, the fact that there is no god is going to change a lot of things. Many concepts, like morals, love, free will, etc, have definitions that have many parts, especially when defined religiously. Obviously those things are going to be very different concepts without a god. Obviously morals as a Christian would define it probably do not exist in a godless world, however (unless you have a lot of good and clear explanations to go with it) that does not really mean anything.
Third, understand at its root that atheism says nothing more than 'there is no god.' Atheism itself says nothing more morals, love, naturalism, etc. However the underlying assumption that there is no god does effect those things. But those are just consequences of atheism, not a direct part of like the Christian God and Biblical morals go together.
And finally, all of these things go together. These facts are all on the same level and support and help each other. Especially one and two where without a god version of (for example) morals leads to a contradiction in a world without god.
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The more you fight, the more the sacrifice for peace becomes a waste
If you don't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say.
God answers all prayers.
Sometimes the answer is no.
I don't know: I would tell you if I did!
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Andreas_Lamont
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
9/18/05 3:51am
Subject:
RE: Official Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Now With 20% Less G*d! (Now discussing Morals)
- Date Edited:
9/18/05 3:53am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Andreas_Lamont
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EnforcerSG posted:
This is a new thread and although I may be overstepping my bounds as just some random guy, there are a few obvious things I want to through out there.
I say let the theists come on in and ask all the question they can and want. If they come however, they should come to understand the atheistic view, question it and come to conclusions, but not to defeat it (if through questioning and understanding it, some irresolvable contradiction is found, then that is fine, but it should not be the purpose to prove atheism wrong). Also there should be several things that are understood for there to be any useful discussion.
i agree with this wholehartedly
The first is that for any question to even belong here it pretty much must assume that there is no god at all. That carries along with it some baggage (and it is hard to put into words but I will try). Many arguments I have heard is that the world could not be as it is (or it could not exist at all) without a god. Any questions about atheism is going to have to assume that the world as is can exist without god. If you do not believe so and want to discuss it later (when morals and whatever else is next is done), then you better be very darn clear how it cannot be.
I dont know how many atheists i speak for here, but were not igonorant to the possibility that their "could" be a g*d, even if we dont believe it in the slightest, we are open to the fact that yeah, their may be a g*d. but because in our experiance and trust in science or "out of the box" look on things we see that their are more possibiliys and find the g*d scenario hard to swallow.
Second, the fact that there is no god is going to change a lot of things. Many concepts, like morals, love, free will, etc, have definitions that have many parts, especially when defined religiously. Obviously those things are going to be very different concepts without a god. Obviously morals as a Christian would define it probably do not exist in a godless world, however (unless you have a lot of good and clear explanations to go with it) that does not really mean anything.
i cant agree with that, the "christian" morals were still created by humans after all, so they are still v human in nature, no-matter where they come from, but discussing as if their was no g*d, i'd have to still say that humans would have still come round to the same morals at somepoint as many morals are enhancements on base instinct of surviveal and protection,i havn't been brought up with christianity but when i look at what i have "learned" on my own over the years through experiance my own morals and judgements could be reflected against those of "christian" morals and their wouldnt be much difference.
Third, understand at its root that atheism says nothing more than 'there is no god.' Atheism itself says nothing more morals, love, naturalism, etc. However the underlying assumption that there is no god does effect those things. But those are just consequences of atheism, not a direct part of like the Christian God and Biblical morals go together.
i've never seen athiesim as a religeon and anyone who does need to look up contradiction in the dictionary, to me atheisim is more a way of life (so is religeon i know) but you cant make a religeon out of something that doesnt believe religeon. plus its insulting lol  , seriously though yes atheisim is more or less "their is no god", but in base, christianity has been built on "their is a god", not much difference there huh?
And finally, all of these things go together. These facts are all on the same level and support and help each other. Especially one and two where without a god version of (for example) morals leads to a contradiction in a world without god.
again i cant bite this, i think humans could have got on without god, my firm belief after thinking about and discussing the bible with other christians, is that the bible was nothing more than early social control, people were impressionable and with a state of near anarchy wiser people decided to create something to build lifes apon and to kurb the anarchy, some thing for people to focus apon. i think people would have seen this themselfs without the bible, but then again it may have taken a little longer to sink in, it may be possible that the bible has played a major part in our evolution? but thats a topic for another time. in short, people are not so impressionable now, and the bible just isnt as believeable as it used to be.
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EnforcerSG
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
9/18/05 6:15am
Subject:
RE: Official Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Now With 20% Less G*d! (Now discussing Morals)
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Andreas_Lamont Once we are done here we should go back to morals. I fear that we are going a little away from understanding atheism and going to understand Christianity. Please understand that this post was more addressed to theists who may want to come in and discuss something. I was just trying to give them some guidelines and tips to make their discussion actually worth something.
Looking at it from a believers point of view, the world cannot exist as it without God, God made everything including things like morals, and God is a 'cornerstone' of everything in this universe. I am basically saying that if they are going to come here with the proper purpose of trying to understand atheism, then they must be able to imagine a world where those things are not true and accept that this is that world (or if they don't then they better be darn clear and complete as to how it is impossible. If a theist would simply saying 'there are no morals without God' then they are wasting our time. If a theist wants to understand the consequences of atheism by asking something like 'should we follow morals if they are not absolute?' then that is fine).
Just to illustrate... At one point you said that you believe all morals are made up by man. That is fine, but Christians obviously do not believe that and so to tell them to not be bound by beliefs like that in this thread, I need to acknowledge beliefs like that. My point was just to set up some ground work for theists to actually be able to understand atheism if they come here.
If there is anything that you typed that you want me to specifically reply to, let me know.
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The more you fight, the more the sacrifice for peace becomes a waste
If you don't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say.
God answers all prayers.
Sometimes the answer is no.
I don't know: I would tell you if I did!
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JediTre11
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
9/18/05 6:44am
Subject:
RE: Official Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Now With 20% Less G*d! (Now discussing Morals)
- Date Edited:
9/18/05 6:44am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
JediTre11
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EnforcerSG posted:
Just a little exercise I think everyone should do; imagine you were writing the dictionary and you got to "moral." What would you (not Webster or dictionary.com or someone else) write as that definition?
moral - the proper adherence in action or thought to a set of beliefs existing within a perspective or perspectives
That was easier than I thought. Too easy. Anyone have anything for this?
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