| Author |
Topic:
Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Roundtable Discussion in Progress
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king_alvarez
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:15am
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - (Humanism, just don't tell Adler..)
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_Darth_Brooks_ posted:
Well, that is precisely the Judeo-Christian message, and as such "masters" we are accountable for our 'destination.'
I don't think the Judeo-Christian message is precisely anything. You can scan through the Christianity thread or numerous other sites to see that there are many many interpretations of what the Judeo-Christian message is.
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Because there are no story-book romances, no fairy-tale endings. So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, "What do you really want?"
Because life... is not a movie. Everyone lies. Good guys lose. And love... does not conquer all.
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_Darth_Brooks_
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:16am
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - (Humanism, just don't tell Adler..)
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King_Alvarez,
"The problem arises when a person tries to promote a cause by relying on subjective experiences or an appeal to a deity as the reason. If he becomes unwilling to yield to a rational argument, it becomes no different than an argument of superior firepower."
A humanist is relying on subjective experience in formulating his or her opinion, wouldn't you agree?
Again, without a more specific instance, I'm still not understanding what you are trying to present, or exactly how it is applicable?
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_Darth_Brooks_
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:18am
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - (Humanism, just don't tell Adler..)
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King_Alvarez,
"I don't think the Judeo-Christian message is precisely anything. You can scan through the Christianity thread or numerous other sites to see that there are many many interpretations of what the Judeo-Christian message is."
Is not precisely anything?
How so?
And, in relation to our ability to make choices in regard to our life or "destiny", how does your statement apply?
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"I once wanted to become an atheist but I gave up . . . they have no holidays. "
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Whom the Mod's would destroy they first drive mad.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:22am
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - (Humanism, just don't tell Adler..)
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Brooksie posted:
The entire tradition of reason and rationalism in western civilization is borne on the back of Greece and Jerusalem, so to speak.
More on Greece than on Jerusalem, wouldn't you think? And how about Leipzig and Paris and Berlin and London? Washington and New York even?
In fact... You're attacking alv's post with a broad generalization... A fallacy.
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_Darth_Brooks_
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:24am
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - (Humanism, just don't tell Adler..)
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SuperWatto,
No, I'm not. The thought, the ideology, and so forth, which is the tradition of "reason" in western civilization was developed from classical Greek and Judeo-Christian thought.
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"I once wanted to become an atheist but I gave up . . . they have no holidays. "
I AM AN ACT OF GOD. If you doubt it ask my insurance agent.
Whom the Mod's would destroy they first drive mad.
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king_alvarez
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:24am
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - (Humanism, just don't tell Adler..)
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_Darth_Brooks_ posted:
A humanist is relying on subjective experience in formulating his or her opinion, wouldn't you agree?
The difference, of course, is that a humanist is much more likely to re-evaluate his subjective opinion than a theist may be, at least, in many instances.
For example, suppose a group wants to prohibit the sale of pork within the US because they feel that God prohibits it. How can you even begin to debate the subject if they are unwilling to even consider rational arguments?
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Because there are no story-book romances, no fairy-tale endings. So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, "What do you really want?"
Because life... is not a movie. Everyone lies. Good guys lose. And love... does not conquer all.
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king_alvarez
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:27am
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - (Humanism, just don't tell Adler..)
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_Darth_Brooks_ posted:
Is not precisely anything?
How so?
There is no precise interpretation that all Christians agree on. In other words, your interpretation of the Judeo-Christian message may not be the correct one.
-----signature-----
Because there are no story-book romances, no fairy-tale endings. So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, "What do you really want?"
Because life... is not a movie. Everyone lies. Good guys lose. And love... does not conquer all.
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_Darth_Brooks_
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:28am
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - (Humanism, just don't tell Adler..)
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King_Alvarez,
How are you attempting to define a "rational" argument?
"For example, suppose a group wants to prohibit the sale of pork within the US because they feel that God prohibits it. How can you even begin to debate the subject if they are unwilling to even consider rational arguments?"
Then, that group pursues their interest, and it gets overturned by consensus. Or, the majority of the population finds the prohibition amenable and supports it legislatively.
Where is the "irrationality?"
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"I once wanted to become an atheist but I gave up . . . they have no holidays. "
I AM AN ACT OF GOD. If you doubt it ask my insurance agent.
Whom the Mod's would destroy they first drive mad.
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king_alvarez
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:37am
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - (Humanism, just don't tell Adler..)
- Date Edited:
5/8 8:38am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
king_alvarez
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_Darth_Brooks_ posted:
Then, that group pursues their interest, and it gets overturned by consensus. Or, the majority of the population finds the prohibition amenable and supports it legislatively.
Where is the "irrationality?"
The basis for their interest or cause is irrational. (I'm using irrational in the sense of supporting an idea or belief despite contrary objective, empirical, or logical evidence)
<edit> though I'm sure you'll dispute that, as is your right, which is not something I care to debate about endlessly with you
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Because there are no story-book romances, no fairy-tale endings. So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, "What do you really want?"
Because life... is not a movie. Everyone lies. Good guys lose. And love... does not conquer all.
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_Darth_Brooks_
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:42am
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - (Humanism, just don't tell Adler..)
- Date Edited:
5/8 9:07am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
_Darth_Brooks_
|
King_Alvarez,
"There is no precise interpretation that all Christians agree on. In other words, your interpretation of the Judeo-Christian message may not be the correct one."
I think, being that we are discussing something which embodies a very large topic, you would need to be more specific.
It is my opinion that there are certain essential concepts and doctrines all true Christians believe in, whether or not they are splitting semantical interpretive hairs. There are a numbers of ways to approach the subject. From a purely historical perspective, one may trace the history of the faith and the Church fathers. That would certainly display how the faith was received and interpreted at it's inception. By contrast someone could then ascertain where other cults may have deviated, or departed from the faith.
But, again, you are getting into some very large issues, oftentimes complex, and oftentimes in areas which don't truly impinge on the essentials of the faith.
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"I once wanted to become an atheist but I gave up . . . they have no holidays. "
I AM AN ACT OF GOD. If you doubt it ask my insurance agent.
Whom the Mod's would destroy they first drive mad.
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king_alvarez
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:46am
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - (Humanism, just don't tell Adler..)
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_Darth_Brooks_ posted:
I think, being that we are discussing something which emodies a very large topic, you would need to be more specific.
I wasn't "discussing" anything; I was merely making an observation. Though that would probably make for a good topic in a different thread, namely, the Christianity one.
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Because there are no story-book romances, no fairy-tale endings. So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, "What do you really want?"
Because life... is not a movie. Everyone lies. Good guys lose. And love... does not conquer all.
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_Darth_Brooks_
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:50am
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - (Humanism, just don't tell Adler..)
- Date Edited:
5/8 8:51am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
_Darth_Brooks_
|
King_Alvarez,
"The basis for their interest or cause is irrational. (I'm using irrational in the sense of supporting an idea or belief despite contrary objective, empirical, or logical evidence)
<edit> though I'm sure you'll dispute that, as is your right, which is not something I care to debate about endlessly with you.
You're basically begging the question in regard to "rationality", you're assuming your view is "rational" and theirs is not...but you haven't provided the basis for determining that they're actually irrational and you are not.
In your scenario, which is basically invoking considerations of the Jewish dietary laws, you are unable to verify in any real sense that someone did not receive divine prescription.
Interestingly, we do know today via modern science pork is detrimental health-wise. That, notwithstanding, why would it be irrational for someone to attempt to adhere to their religious belief?
Let us say this, in your scenario, as put, that an individual did receive divine information, it would then be irrational for them not to pursue the course of their instruction, wouldn't it?
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"I once wanted to become an atheist but I gave up . . . they have no holidays. "
I AM AN ACT OF GOD. If you doubt it ask my insurance agent.
Whom the Mod's would destroy they first drive mad.
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king_alvarez
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:51am
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - (Humanism, just don't tell Adler..)
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SuperWatto posted:
Well. For instance.
There's humanist organizations who let people come over to speak at a funeral, if you wish. In some hospitals, you can get a humanist guidance instead of a priest if you wish. They will marry you in a certain humanist way if you want.
... Would you?
Hmmm, that's pretty interesting. Do you know what a humanist marriage would involve? Is there really much of a difference besides taking out the religious aspects?
I wonder how many other religious organizations or groups could be replaced by humanist ones, or if there would even really be much of a reason to?
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Because there are no story-book romances, no fairy-tale endings. So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, "What do you really want?"
Because life... is not a movie. Everyone lies. Good guys lose. And love... does not conquer all.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:53am
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - (Humanism, just don't tell Adler..)
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Brooks posted:
No, I'm not. The thought, the ideology, and so forth, which is the tradition of "reason" in western civilization was developed from classical Greek and Judeo-Christian thought
PPOR.
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_Darth_Brooks_
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:56am
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - (Humanism, just don't tell Adler..)
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SuperWatto-pooh,
I can only recommend taking some western-civ courses.
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"I once wanted to become an atheist but I gave up . . . they have no holidays. "
I AM AN ACT OF GOD. If you doubt it ask my insurance agent.
Whom the Mod's would destroy they first drive mad.
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