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Topic:
Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Roundtable Discussion in Progress
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DorkmanScott
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
7/2 12:46pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Roundtable Discussion in Progress
- Date Edited:
7/2 12:49pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DorkmanScott
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Mr44 posted:
What if a dedicated group of people simply claim the gun control thread, and entrench themselves? Hey, suddenly Jabbadabadoo is the outsider, and if he's removed- as you say, nothing much would change in the thread... Except of course, for the exchange of ideas.
That's assuming there's a productive exchange of ideas going on.
You say yourself that you've only been aware of this for two weeks. I implore you to read back over the last couple of months before you start declaring that everyone is equally to blame or that there's any "entrenching" going on.
Also, I may not have PM'ed you, but I PM'ed Lowbacca several times about this issue, and I know others like SuperWatto have done the same. If he didn't bring it up to you then that's something else you guys ought to discuss.
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 Obama/Biden 2008 Let's bring back America. http://www.ryanvsdorkman.com Check out my blog: http://dorkmanscott.blogspot.com
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
7/2 1:04pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Roundtable Discussion in Progress
- Date Edited:
7/2 1:09pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Mr44
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You say yourself that you've only been aware of this for two weeks.
No, I didn't say I was only aware of the issue for 2 weeks. 2 weeks ago, after Quix's PM, was the point when the normal response was "ramped up," so to speak.
The other issue is an important one as well.
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Peter Shoomaker
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
7/2 1:14pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Roundtable Discussion in Progress
- Date Edited:
7/2 1:16pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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I should note here that I really am an atheist troublemaker, so I banned myself from this thread a while back. Every once in a while the devil tempts me to wade into religion themed discussions. I always regret it later.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
7/2 1:22pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Roundtable Discussion in Progress
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DorkmanScott posted:
I implore you to read back over the last couple of months before you start declaring that everyone is equally to blame or that there's any "entrenching" going on.
QFT. Couldn´t have said it any better. The thread speaks for itself. Moreover, Mr44, I think it's your responsiblity to read up. Modding: it's a dirty job but someone has to do it...
If you have already done so, forget I said anything. And FWIW - I'm glad you're looking into it now.
I really don't buy the both sides are at fault argument. At first (read: May 2007), the reactions to the anti-atheist generalisations and mudslinging were patient and tolerant (first reactions were by king_alvarez and VadersLament - both have been missing from this thread for a while now. Who's won?). but if the anti-atheist generalisations and mudslinging continues for a year without visible, constructive mod interference, of course someone's going to write "*bangs head against wall*" or "please stop posting here". We´re only human.
And can anyone enlighten me as to why making a new thread would make any difference?
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
7/2 1:46pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Roundtable Discussion in Progress
- Date Edited:
7/2 1:58pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Mr44
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QFT. Couldn´t have said it any better. The thread speaks for itself. Moreover, Mr44, I think it's your responsiblity to read up. Modding: it's a dirty job but someone has to do it...
If you have already done so, forget I said anything. And FWIW - I'm glad you're looking into it now
Ok, see this is what I mean. Guys, there are procedures in place. Since everyone is reviewing the thread, for how far back do both of us have standard actions in the thread that are comprised of warnings, cool down lockings, edits and such?
Watto, it's not a case of completely ignoring the thread, but as we already discussed between us, moderating is a 2 way street. If you send in a request that you want action taken against "user A." And at the same time "user A" wants action taken against you, a robot would simply take action against both of you, without really stopping to sort the particulars out. That's not what our job is here. Since we're not robots, the overall situation has to be looked at.
Once the issues are identified, the first step is to warn the person and try and work with them. In the meantime- a week or two may pass, and things might not be as bad as they were.
Then another incident pops up which may get the person an initial 24 hr ban. After that, another week or so may pass were things settle down again.
Then incident 3 happens, and the person gets a 2 day ban, and another week or so may pass.
From an outsider's perspective, 2 months or more may have passed, and to them, it looks like nothing has happened. In reality, during that time, multiple mods have sent multiple PM's trying to work with the other person- in addition to bans and unban requests, and so on.
However, also by this time, enough information has been collected and enough incidents have been documented to start increasing the consequences.
This is the procedure that has existed for years and years. It's never been policy to simply point to a potential problem and go in and remove it without following the steps.
The benefit of a new thread is that the baggage of the old thread is left behind, and the perimeters are known to all from the get go. There should be no doubt as to what will happen to someone who is disruptive from this point on.
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Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability.
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Peter Shoomaker
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DorkmanScott
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
7/2 2:09pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Roundtable Discussion in Progress
- Date Edited:
7/2 2:19pm (4 edits total)
Edited By:
DorkmanScott
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I don't understand why you're lecturing some of us who have been mods on moderating procedure. It is exactly BECAUSE we know the procedure that the fact it's gotten this far is absurd.
As you pointed out, repeated bans for the same offense escalate the ban time. Hence, BY NOW, if you had actually been banning according to procedure, nancyallen would be on a very, very long term ban by now. And maybe I would too, though I don't think you could even sort of argue that the behavior has been in the same league.
I can remember one "cool-down" locking of the thread, and recently. And maybe two "calm down" posts. And in all cases, the problem would have gone away if you had simply dealt with the problem user.
It's as simple as reviewing post history and behavior patterns. We did it all the time as mods. Any other thread a poster like nancyallen would be on a six month ban by now -- having worked her way up according to the process you outlined. Whether we know her banning history or not (and I happen to, up until I stepped down, but I'll respect MS privacy), the fact is that she is posting NOW, in this very "roundtable" discussion, which means she ISN'T banned right now, which means no long term ban has kicked into effect, which means her banning history can't be very extensive. Which means she has been getting away with the kind of behavior that would never be tolerated in any other religion thread, and we've ALL been getting warnings when only ONE person is the problem.
We know the procedures. She appears to be exempt from them, because we all know that WE, as mods, would not have let that stand. Why the preferential treatment?
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nancyallen
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
7/2 2:30pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Roundtable Discussion in Progress
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A legal case could have been made for stalking if you prefer. It is exactly because there is a problem all around that the situation is taking place, whether it be an issue of one user being banned and another doing exactly the same thing and getting away with it or the hostility that arises when asked to be reassured that an example of atheism isn't true for everyone.
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DorkmanScott
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
7/2 2:51pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Roundtable Discussion in Progress
- Date Edited:
7/2 2:59pm (4 edits total)
Edited By:
DorkmanScott
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nancyallen posted:
A legal case could have been made for stalking if you prefer.
Go ahead and try. Seriously, I dare you.
Otherwise keep this nonsense to yourself, because you're not helping your case.
nancyallen posted:
It is exactly because there is a problem all around that the situation is taking place, whether it be an issue of one user being banned and another doing exactly the same thing and getting away with it or the hostility that arises when asked to be reassured that an example of atheism isn't true for everyone.
Sorry nancy, no. There is not a problem all around. There is a problem with you being unable to play nice with others, unable to respect the differing opinions of others, and/or unable to see the difference between attacking an idea or attacking a person. And the fact that you have been told and told and told and continue to say the same things over and over and over indicates that you are either unwilling or incapable of understanding anything anyone else says, which is not conducive to any kind of discussion.
Your posts have been accusatory, inflammatory, and inappropriate almost 100% of the time. You are obsessed, you are disrespectful, YOU are the "problem all around". Period.
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Obama/Biden 2008 Let's bring back America. http://www.ryanvsdorkman.com Check out my blog: http://dorkmanscott.blogspot.com
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dianethx
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
7/2 3:12pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Roundtable Discussion in Progress
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44 - I would like to explain that I didn't send you PMs about the situation because relatively newbie-to-the-Senate that I am, I figured since there were so many mods and former mods here that the powers-that-be realized the situation and condoned it.
But from a newbie's perspective, it looked like the mods were doing nothing to help the situation so I figured they wouldn't listen to me anyway.
That was my assumption and apparently a poor one. I'll remember it in future.
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
7/2 3:19pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Roundtable Discussion in Progress
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A legal case could have been made for stalking if you prefer.
This is great. An attempt at e-intimidation by the use of an oblique reference to legal action. Truly inspirational material. This in a closely monitored 'roundtable' discussion.
I'm supremely confident that we are wasting our time here. It would be great if some of the rational, intelligent, articulate and legally sane theists that frequent the christianity thread would come to this thread and play. If that were to happen, I think we would have a good little discussion. As it stands though, I can see more of the same within 48 hours of this 'roundtable' being concluded and the thread returning to business as usual (albeit perhaps in a different format).
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
7/2 3:23pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Roundtable Discussion in Progress
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44, our disagreement boils down to a difference in philosophy. You continue to overthink this particular issue, when the solution in fact is very easy. You seem to give everyone's opinion and approach equal weight, and that just isn't a good way to go in my view. No one said anything about immediately jumping to a six month ban (I never said anything of the sort), but I would have taken action quickly and decisively. The action would initially have been nothing more than verbal, but in time it would have progressed to either a ban from the thread or a ban from the JC in general.
You can't take the same deliberate approach to everything and expect success. Your first duty is to the overall thread/discussion and the forum. If something or someone is disrupting that thread, you take action. Decisively. There are complex problems, but this isn't one of them.
The "detriment to the community doctrine" is a last resort, and used when other methods have been exhausted. It's not a surgical strike tool that's used to preemptively remove those who simply don't agree with others.
It's something that's more obvious in some cases than in others. Rarely is it more clear than it is here.
Practically, we're talking about a period of 2 weeks from when the issue was specifically addressed to now- the reason why we're posting this.
Based on what I've seen, you've missed the boat for months. This is a problem that has apparently gone on for months now, and you're only now getting to it? I would have dealt with it quickly, as it is plain that Nancy simply is unwilling to change her posting style, disrupts the overall thread and flow of discussion and causes the thread to revolve around her. Nothing more can be done to help her, and something must be done to help the thread.
You give far too much credit to Nancy and not enough to everyone else.
This is how I would have handled it as a moderator, and how I handled some situations in the past. I didn't do too poorly, and didn't have many complaints.
Moderators don't need to chain themselves to some kind of deliberate pattern of escalation when the solution becomes obvious. That's not to say at all that any moderator should jump, as I said before, to Defcon 1 immediately. But it does mean that when it's obvious to everyone watching (or nearly everyone) what the problem is and what the solution is, you act.
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
7/2 3:25pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism Discussion 2.0 - Roundtable Discussion in Progress
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dianethx, no problem. We all learned as we went along, and your thoughts are not absolutely not wrong or anything of the sort.
With other issues, the goal is to keep moving in a positive direction, so I'm going to lock this right now.
For Dorkman and Nancy- just so there is no doubt on who is being proactive and when, and I'll even use old school style bold type:
BOTH OF YOUR BEHAVIOR IS INAPPROPRIATE, AND WILL NO LONGER BE CONDONED. IF EITHER OF YOU TRANSFER THIS FEUD INTO THE NEW THREAD, ACTION WILL BE IMMEDIATELY TAKEN
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Peter Shoomaker
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