Author Topic: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Kimball_Kinnison  12552 posts
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 10/24/05 1:19pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Obi-Wan McCartney posted:

Justice Goldberg posted:
To hold that a right so basic and fundamental and so deeprooted in our society as the right of privacy in marriage may be infringed because that right is not guaranteed in so many words by the first eight amendments to the Constitution is to ignore the Ninth Amendment and to give it no effect whatsoever.


Just because rights are unenumerated does not mean they aren't protected.
Where does it say that IN THE CONSTITUTION?

No matter what some Supreme Court justice says in an opinion, they don't have the authority to add to the Constitution, nor to change what it does say. They are inherently limited to the authority granted in the Constitution, no more.

"Retained" is not the same as "protected".

Kimball Kinnison

 

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Obi-Wan McCartney  8597 posts
Registered: Aug '99
13616_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 10/24/05 1:22pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort. - Date Edited: 10/24/05 1:54pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Obi-Wan McCartney

KK posted:
No matter what some Supreme Court justice says in an opinion, they don't have the authority to add to the Constitution, nor to change what it does say. They are inherently limited to the authority granted in the Constitution, no more.


I completely agree. No one is saying the Supreme Court can invent rights out of thin air. What I am saying is that the Judiciary has jurisdiction over matters that run afoul of the federal constitution.



Justice Douglass posted:
Any person who assists, abets, counsels, causes, hires or commands another to commit any offense may be prosecuted and punished as if he were the principal offender."

The appellants were found guilty as accessories and fined $100 each, against the claim that the accessory statute as so applied violated the Fourteenth Amendment. The Appellate Division of the Circuit Court affirmed. The Supreme Court of Errors affirmed that judgment. 151 Conn. 544, 200 A. 2d 479. We noted probable jurisdiction. 379 U.S. 926.

We think that appellants have standing to raise the constitutional rights of the married people with whom they had a professional relationship. Tileston v. Ullman, 318 U.S. 44, is different, for there the plaintiff seeking to represent others asked for a declaratory judgment. In that situation we thought that the requirements of standing should be strict, lest the standards of "case or controversy" in Article III of the Constitution become blurred. Here those doubts are removed by reason of a criminal conviction for serving married couples in violation of an aiding-and-abetting statute. Certainly the accessory should have standing to assert that the offense which he is charged with assisting is not, or cannot constitutionally be, a crime.

This case is more akin to Truax v. Raich, 239 U.S. 33, where an employee was permitted to assert the rights of his employer; to Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U.S. 510, where the owners of private schools were entitled to assert the rights of potential pupils and their parents; and to Barrows v. Jackson, 346 U.S. 249, where a white defendant, party to a racially restrictive covenant, who was being sued for damages by the covenantors because she had conveyed her property to Negroes, was allowed to raise the issue that enforcement of the covenant violated the rights of prospective Negro purchasers to equal protection, although no Negro was a party to the suit. And see Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390; Adler v. Board of Education, 342 U.S. 485; NAACP v. Alabama, 357 U.S. 449; NAACP v. Button, 371 U.S. 415. The rights of husband and wife, pressed here, are likely to be diluted or adversely affected unless those rights are considered in a suit involving those who have this kind of confidential relation to them.

Coming to the merits, we are met with a wide range of questions that implicate the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Overtones of some arguments suggest that Lochner v. New York, 198 U.S. 45, should be our guide. But we decline that invitation as we did in West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish, 300 U.S. 379; Olsen v. Nebraska, 313 U.S. 236; Lincoln Union v. Northwestern Co., 335 U.S. 525; Williamson v. Lee Optical Co., 348 U.S. 483; Giboney v. Empire Storage Co., 336 U.S. 490. We do not sit as a super-legislature to determine the wisdom, need, and propriety of laws that touch economic problems, business affairs, or social conditions. This law, however, operates directly on an intimate relation of husband and wife and their physician's role in one aspect of that relation.

The association of people is not mentioned in the Constitution nor in the Bill of Rights. The right to educate a child in a school of the parents' choice - whether public or private or parochial - is also not mentioned. Nor is the right to study any particular subject or any foreign language. Yet the First Amendment has been construed to include certain of those rights.

By Pierce v. Society of Sisters, supra, the right to educate one's children as one chooses is made applicable to the States by the force of the First and Fourteenth Amendments. By Meyer v. Nebraska, supra, the same dignity is given the right to study the German language in a private school. In other words, the State may not, consistently with the spirit of the First Amendment, contract the spectrum of available knowledge. The right of freedom of speech and press includes not only the right to utter or to print, but the right to distribute, the right to receive, the right to read (Martin v. Struthers, 319 U.S. 141, 143) and freedom of inquiry, freedom of thought, and freedom to teach (see Wieman v. Updegraff, 344 U.S. 183, 195) - indeed the freedom of the entire university community. Sweezy v. New Hampshire, 354 U.S. 234, 249-250, 261-263; Barenblatt v. United States, 360 U.S. 109, 112; Baggett v. Bullitt, 377 U.S. 360, 369. Without those peripheral rights the specific rights would be less secure. And so we reaffirm the principle of the Pierce and the Meyer cases.

In NAACP v. Alabama, 357 U.S. 449, 462, we protected the "freedom to associate and privacy in one's associations," noting that freedom of association was a peripheral First Amendment right. Disclosure of membership lists of a constitutionally valid association, we held, was invalid "as entailing the likelihood of a substantial restraint upon the exercise by petitioner's members of their right to freedom of association." Ibid. In other words, the First Amendment has a penumbra where privacy is protected from governmental intrusion. In like context, we have protected forms of "association" that are not political in the customary sense but pertain to the social, legal, and economic benefit of the members. NAACP v. Button, 371 U.S. 415, 430-431. In Schware v. Board of Bar Examiners, 353 U.S. 232, we held it not permissible to bar a lawyer from practice, because he had once been a member of the Communist Party. The man's "association with that Party" was not shown to be "anything more than a political faith in a political party" (id., at 244) and was not action of a kind proving bad moral character. Id., at 245-246.

Those cases involved more than the "right of assembly" - a right that extends to all irrespective of their race or ideology. De Jonge v. Oregon, 299 U.S. 353. The right of "association," like the right of belief (Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624), is more than the right to attend a meeting; it includes the right to express one's attitudes or philosophies by membership in a group or by affiliation with it or by other lawful means. Association in that context is a form of expression of opinion; and while it is not expressly included in the First Amendment its existence is necessary in making the express guarantees fully meaningful.

The foregoing cases suggest that specific guarantees in the Bill of Rights have penumbras, formed by emanations from those guarantees that help give them life and substance. See Poe v. Ullman, 367 U.S. 497, 516-522 (dissenting opinion). Various guarantees create zones of privacy. The right of association contained in the penumbra of the First Amendment is one, as we have seen. The Third Amendment in its prohibition against the quartering of soldiers "in any house" in time of peace without the consent of the owner is another facet of that privacy. The Fourth Amendment explicitly affirms the "right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures." The Fifth Amendment in its Self-Incrimination Clause enables the citizen to create a zone of privacy which government may not force him to surrender to his detriment. The Ninth Amendment provides: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

The Fourth and Fifth Amendments were described in Boyd v. United States, 116 U.S. 616, 630, as protection against all governmental invasions "of the sanctity of a man's home and the privacies of life." We recently referred in Mapp v. Ohio, 367 U.S. 643, 656, to the Fourth Amendment as creating a "right to privacy, no less important than any other right carefully and particularly reserved to the people." See Beaney, The Constitutional Right to Privacy, 1962 Sup. Ct. Rev. 212; Griswold, The Right to be Let Alone, 55 Nw. U. L. Rev. 216 (1960).

We have had many controversies over these penumbral rights of "privacy and repose." See, e. g., Breard v. Alexandria, 341 U.S. 622, 626, 644; Public Utilities Comm'n v. Pollak, 343 U.S. 451; Monroe v. Pape, 365 U.S. 167; Lanza v. New York, 370 U.S. 139; Frank v. Maryland, 359 U.S. 360; Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, 541. These cases bear witness that the right of privacy which presses for recognition here is a legitimate one.

The present case, then, concerns a relationship lying within the zone of privacy created by several fundamental constitutional guarantees. And it concerns a law which, in forbidding the use of contraceptives rather than regulating their manufacture or sale, seeks to achieve its goals by means having a maximum destructive impact upon that relationship. Such a law cannot stand in light of the familiar principle, so often applied by this Court, that a "governmental purpose to control or prevent activities constitutionally subject to state regulation may not be achieved by means which sweep unnecessarily broadly and thereby invade the area of protected freedoms." NAACP v. Alabama, 377 U.S. 288, 307. Would we allow the police to search the sacred precincts of marital bedrooms for telltale signs of the use of contraceptives? The very idea is repulsive to the notions of privacy surrounding the marriage relationship.

We deal with a right of privacy older than the Bill of Rights - older than our political parties, older than our school system. Marriage is a coming together for better or for worse, hopefully enduring, and intimate to the degree of being sacred. It is an association that promotes a way of life, not causes; a harmony in living, not political faiths; a bilateral loyalty, not commercial or social projects. Yet it is an association for as noble a purpose as any involved in our prior decisions.

Reversed.


Part of the disconnect is in how we view the law. You seem to think that you can simply ignore common law and believe that you can interpret the law yourself and then demand that everyone see it the way you do. That's fine, but I can help you out a little bit here, because technically you are supposed to have a constitutional scholar backing your argument if you want it to carry weight. So here's a freebie:


Justice Black posted:


While I completely subscribe to the holding of Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 2 L.Ed. 60, and subsequent cases, that our Court has constitutional power to strike down statutes, state or federal, that violate commands of the Federal Constitution, I do not believe that we are granted power by the Due Process Clause or any other constitutional provision or provisions to measure constitutionality by our belief that legislation is arbitrary, capricious or unreasonable, or accomplishes no justifiable purpose, or is offensive to our own notions of 'civilized standards of conduct.' [FN5] Such an appraisal of the wisdom of legislation is an attribute of the power to make laws, not of the power to interpret them. The

The use by federal courts of such a formula or doctrine or whatnot to veto federal or state laws simply takes away from Congress and States the power to make laws based on their own judgment of fairness and wisdom and transfers that power to this Court for ultimate determination--a power which was specifically **1698 denied to federal courts by the convention that framed the Constitution.



-Good point Justice Black.

But what about Justice Douglass's point?


Justice Douglass posted:
The association of people is not mentioned in the Constitution nor in the Bill of Rights. The right to educate a child in a school of the parents' choice--whether public or private or parochial--is also not mentioned. Nor is the right to study any particular subject or any foreign language. Yet the First Amendment has been construed to include certain of those rights.
By Pierce v. Society of Sisters, supra, the right to educate one's children as one chooses is made applicable to the States by the force of the First and Fourteenth Amendments. By Meyer v. State of Nebraska, supra, the same dignity is given the right to study the German language in a private school. In other words, the State may not, consistently with the spirit of the First Amendment, contract the spectrum of available knowledge. The right of freedom of speech and press includes not only the right to utter or to print, but the right to distribute, the right to receive, the right to read (Martin v. City of Struthers, 319 U.S. 141, 143, 63 S.Ct. 862, 863, 87 L.Ed. 1313) and freedom of inquiry, freedom of thought, and freedom to teach (see Wieman v. Updegraff, 344 U.S. 183, 195, 73 S.Ct. 215, 220, 97 L.Ed. 216)--indeed the freedom of the entire university community. Sweezy v. State of New Hampshire, 354 U.S. 234, 249--250, 261--263, 77 S.Ct. 1203, 1211, 1217--1218, 1 L.Ed.2d 1311; **1681 Barenblatt v. United States, 360 U.S. 109, 112, 79 S.Ct. 1081, 1085, 3 L.Ed.2d 1115; Baggett v. Bullitt, 377 U.S. 360, 369, 84 S.Ct. 1316, 1321, 12 L.Ed.2d 377. Without *483 those peripheral rights the specific rights would be less secure. And so we reaffirm the principle of the Pierce and the Meyer cases.


The right to privacy is protected in the constitution specifically, and by implication of the 9th and 10th amendments. The people retain basic rights while others may be given to the states. However, the right of marital privacy is one that was not and cannot be given to the states.


Justice Black posted:
I repeat so as not to be misunderstood that this Court does have power, which it should exercise, to hold laws unconstitutional where they are forbidden by the Federal Constitution. My point is that there is no provision *521 of the Constitution which either expressly or impliedly vests power in this Court to sit as a supervisory agency over acts of duly constituted legislative bodies and set aside their laws because of the Court's belief that the legislative policies adopted are unreasonable, unwise, arbitrary, capricious or irrational. The adoption of such a loose, flexible, uncontrolled standard for holding laws unconstitutional, if ever it is finally achieved, will amount to **1702 a great unconstitutional shift of power to the courts which I believe and am constrained to say will be bad for the courts and worse for the country.


Hmm, you raise some good points Justice Black. However, I don't think it goes that far. Some things are blatently obvious, but others, like 1st amendment rights, can be gleamed from the constitution itself. The right of privacy has its roots in several constitutional amendments, it isn't as if the judges made up the idea. And just like 1st amendment freedoms have been interpreted by the court, so do the 4th, 5th, 9th and 14th amendments. Because to claim that the 1st amendment applies only to the federal government, in light of the 14th amendment, is to do away with the proction whatsoever. The same is true for privacy rights.

 

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EnforcerSG  3378 posts
Registered: Sep '01
6133_Count Dooku
Date Posted: 11/2/05 8:11pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
This thread has been a little quiet, so I am going to put my 2 cents in.

After thinking about it, I feel that the nature of the Constitution and the Amendments are to define and limit the powers of the mainly the federal government, and a little of the state and local. It is not meant to give, define, or limit the rights of the people. Except for prohibition (and there is a good reason why I am ignoring it wink ), there is no part in the constitution that in effect says what the people may or may not do (as far as I know). Things like the 19th amendment are worded such that the government cannot stand in the way of womans suffrage, it does not say that women now has the right to vote (for example, the amendment does not say that husband cannot keep his wife from voting).

With that in mind, many controversial issues where people throw the idea of making an amendment about it generally become mute.

Or I could be wrong.

 

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Branthoris  661 posts
Registered: Nov '02
6473_Clone Emperor
Date Posted: 11/4/05 12:59pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort. - Date Edited: 11/4/05 1:03pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Branthoris
It's immensely interesting to observe that Justice Black was regarded as a "liberal" in his time, yet today he would be seen as an extreme right-winger for his opposition to substantive due process in all its forms. Indeed, on the majority of issues Black would be a clone of Scalia (or adopt positions even further to the "right"; Scalia, for example, takes a far more expansive view of the rights accorded to defendants by the Due Process Clause than did Black, who saw it as guaranteeing no more than obedience to the "law of the land").

Which should say something about the utter emptiness of the left/right dichotomy as applied to judicial appointments.

 

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Obi-Wan McCartney  8597 posts
Registered: Aug '99
13616_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/4/05 1:12pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort. - Date Edited: 11/4/05 1:25pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Obi-Wan McCartney
Good point, its actually why I am not too concerned about Alito.\

About your charecterization of Justice Black, however, I disagree. There is no WAY he'd ever be considered anything but a true blue liberal. He was a staunch supporter of civil rights, and he supported the application of the federal of Bill of Rights to the state, much more than his colleagues, completely the opposite of true right winger Clarence Thomas. He believed in a WALL OF SEPARATION between church and state and ruled against the prayer in public schools. He was a staunch 1st amendment supporter and did a lot to ensure that federal and state governments couldn't trample on free speech rights. He would have agreed with Scalia that say campaign finance rules infringed on free speech, and sure, in other ways he was a strict constructionist, he didn't believe in injecting his personal moral opinions and had a limited view of the 4th amendments privacy rights gauruntees, but considering his liberal views on free speech, application of the 14th amendment, and civil rights, I don't think anyone anywhere would ever dream of calling him an extreme right winger by any means.

His beliefs regarding the 14th amendments application of ALL the Bill of Rights to the states was liberal enough, but don't forget abotu Brown v. Board of Education or Gideon v. Wainright.

 

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DeathStar1977  3373 posts
Registered: Jan '03
7850_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 11/4/05 4:34pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
In the court ruling US vs. Fishbine, a man subjected to potential incineration while wearing another man's suit is entitled to $10,000 worth of airline tickets. It's an obscure ruling, but a very important one to me.

 

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ophelia  12073 posts
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Registered: Jun '02
50031_H640: Ophelia
Date Posted: 11/4/05 6:35pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort. - Date Edited: 11/4/05 6:37pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ophelia
KK, the Constitution was intentionally written vaguely in parts so that unforeseen "unenumerated rights" could be recognized. The clearest example is the "necessary and proper" clause, which is about as vague as you can possibly get while still retaining some sense of meaning. The Articles of Confederation failed because of their rigidity and the impotent role they gave the federal government. The document's problems culminated in Shay's Rebellion, and nobody wanted to see another one of those. The "necessary and proper" clause does, and was intended to, grant Congress broad unenumerated powers over matters related to relations between the states.

An easy test to see whether an issue has interstate significance is to ask what would happen if the federal government ignored that particular issue. Would the result harm the fabric holding the Union together, which is what both the Constitution's framers and its post-Civil War "overhaulers" feared? Suppose we do away with the federal recognition of the right to privacy, and allow each state to determine whether such a right exists. Next suppose the states come up with a wide range of variations on this particular right--from very strong protections to none at all. In Wyoming (let's say), the right to privacy is minimal, and HIPAA is declared null and void. Medical records are more or less public, and both insurance companies and prospective employers have unimpeded access to them. People with various medical conditions are considered too great a workers' comp risk, and they can't get employment in that state. Those who are lucky enough to get jobs can't get health insurance. Most neither move nor starve; they just tap into state and federal assistance programs at a much higher rate than in other states. (I'm assuming that you consider post-New Deal programs, passed by Congress, to be legitimate.) Wyoming is now a great SSI and Medicaid sinkhole that other states must pour money into. Or, if you prefer, the employed of Wyoming will foot the bill for the ill, uninsured, and unemployed of their state. Even (or rather, especially) if they vote to eliminate government health programs that stress illness prevention, they will pay out the wazoo in medical costs as those who have insurance pay for every critically ill person who enters the hospital without insurance, a job, or government assistance. If the insurance companies involved do business in more than one state, then the costs of Wyoming will be shared throughout the nation.

Personally, I see interstate commerce there. I'm sick of watching my insurance premiums creep up and up as it is, and I'm tired of watching my state's public hospitals close. I *don't* want to pony up extra money for preventable emergency care in another state that decided on a Malthusian health care code. In an every-state-for-itself America, the only way around having me shelling out for uninsured patients in Wyoming would be for nationwide insurance companies to abandon the state altogether, or for the federal government to step in and regulate who has to pay for whose voting decisions. Obviously, bringing the federal government in would defeat the purpose of severing legal ties between the states.

For a more immediate example of what life would be like with a significantly weaker federal government, we need only to look at Canada. Their Charter (more or less their Bill of Rights) has a "notwithstanding clause" that basically allows provinces to opt out of certain civil rights provisions. This is what spawned the "illegal hate speech" laws that panicked several people on this board (after the Concerned Women for America howled "the sky is falling" over them). The same clause is what has Quebec and Alberta grumbling and threatening secession over verious issues--Quebec much more seriously so.

We traded the Articles of Confederation in for the Constitution because we did not want regions to start threatening secession over public policy issues. We added the 14th Amendment to the Constitution in order to further limit states' rights to pull away from the federal fold. The institution of slavery created too great a divide between opposing blocs of states, and we had a civil war over it. That fact in itself shows that the legal bonds between states can be stretched too thin if there is insufficient federal binding. Or, as President Lincoln put it, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

The Tenth Amendment was intended to prevent tyranny from the central government--not to stop the federal government from reining in the states over any but a certain small, frozen set of issues. If that last had been the case, we would have kept the Articles of Confederation, since that's exactly what they did.

If Congress recognizes the right to privacy as a significant interstate issue (and both HIPAA and the recent do-not-call list law suggest it does), then the right to privacy exists. Maybe the right to privacy itself isn't "enumerated" enough for some to acknowledge it, but Congress' right to acknowledge it is undeniable. Even if it weren't, the only way to keep Congress from acknowledging it would be to turn to another federal power--the Supreme Court. Either way, having two branches of the federal government wrangling over what the states are allowed to do does not a states' rights case make. The reality is that the United States has a fairly strong central government, and that the people, as amenders of the Constitution ad members of a democracy, have voted to make it that way. The days of Anti-Federalism are over, and the secessionist squabble in Quebec suggests that we do not want them back.
DeathStar1977 posted:
In the court ruling US vs. Fishbine, a man subjected to potential incineration while wearing another man's suit is entitled to $10,000 worth of airline tickets. It's an obscure ruling, but a very important one to me.
What the . . . ? confused

 

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IkritMan  9486 posts
Registered: Sep '02
20894_Atris
Date Posted: 11/7/05 11:33am Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Obi-Wan McCartney posted:
Yes, but if the constitution gauruntees the right to privacy, then the states have no ability to legislate it away.


The key word being "if." Of course, if you've read the Constitution, you'd realize it does not guarantee a right to privacy. It protects some private acts, but this in no way means that other non-related acts not guaranteed are protected as well. There are aspects of liberty guaranteed in the Constitution, but prancing in the streets with no clothes on is not guaranteed. Streaking, therefore, can be legislated against despite the fact that other aspects of liberty are protected.

While activists who pretend to be non-activists add their own clauses to the Constitution in the name of "interpretation," they simultaneously take other clauses out (or, perhaps, they're merely confused by the second amendment).

When I see such blatant activism as Lawrence v. Texas, claiming that the due process clause grants people the liberty to do whatever they want regardless of law, I'm disgusted that propenents of said activism yell about how they're really not activist. I don't comprehend such a fallacy; that supposedly intelligent judges like Anthony Kennedy can believe that "nor [shall any person] be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" means "we have unbridled liberty" is just plain silly.

 

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Obi-Wan McCartney  8597 posts
Registered: Aug '99
13616_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/7/05 11:57am Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
How was Lawrence judicial activism?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was struck under the "no rationale basis" test, meaning their was no rationale basis for the law in terms of promoting a legitimate government interest.

What government interest was even being achieved by lawrence?

 

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IkritMan  9486 posts
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20894_Atris
Date Posted: 11/7/05 8:39pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Please explain your question further. The Constitution does not mention a "rationale basis" test for every state law. There is also a clear government interest for the law, obviously, or else your "rationale basis test" would have been used in Lawrence's majority opinion, which it wasn't. The Court's reasoning to overrule the state's Constitutional law and overwhelming Court precedent was that the due process clause (which guarantees that liberty cannot be infringed upon unless one has due process) means that we have unbridled liberty.

 

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Vaderize03  5851 posts
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14744_Darth Vader
Date Posted: 11/8/05 8:14am Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Ikrit, where in the Texas constitution does it say that homosexuality is illegal?

You are referring to a state law, I believe, and not a constitutional precedent.

Peace,

V-03

 

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Obi-Wan McCartney  8597 posts
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13616_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/8/05 8:40am Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
So, I-man, you think that a law making all sexual contact between people within the state would be constitutional?

Can the state declare marital sex illegal?

 

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Branthoris  661 posts
Registered: Nov '02
6473_Clone Emperor
Date Posted: 11/8/05 8:40am Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort. - Date Edited: 11/8/05 8:50am (1 edits total) Edited By: Branthoris
Actually, I think it's unclear which test was being applied. The opinion in Lawrence casts some aspersions on the conclusion of Bowers v. Hardwick that homosexual intercourse is not a "fundamental right" (if it were, that would subject the regulation of it to the demanding strict scrutiny test), but ultimately invalidates the law by saying that "The Texas statute furthers no legitimate state interest which can justify its intrusion into the personal and private life of the individual" - which is apparently a statement that the Texas law fails even the lax rational basis test.

Anyway, the point about Lawrence is that it has no foundation in anything other than the Justices' personal predilections. Its holding certainly isn't motivated by the text or history of the Constitution, and it can't be motivated by precedent because it overruled the previous case of Bowers v. Hardwick. There is no objective criterion which compelled the outcome of the case.

 

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Raven  9102 posts
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Date Posted: 11/8/05 8:42am Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Obi-Wan McCartney posted:
So, I-man, you think that a law making all sexual contact between people within the state would be constitutional?

Can the state declare marital sex illegal?


Can it? Anything can be declared illegal (or legal) if the movement against it gets enough support, no matter how crazy the idea is.

 

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Obi-Wan McCartney  8597 posts
Registered: Aug '99
13616_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 11/8/05 11:58am Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Well, Branthoris, Sandra Day O'Conner's concurrance invalidated the law on equal protection grounds, leaving the Bowers decision intact...

And I'm still waiting on a retraction for your statement that today Justice Black would be considered a fire right winger! nerd

 

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