Author Topic: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
IkritMan  9486 posts
Registered: Sep '02
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Date Posted: 10/11/05 6:19pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
DARTH-SHREDDER posted:
Ok, but isn't the objective to make what is moral legal, and what is immoral illegal?


Partly, but the Constitution doesn't proclaim what is legal. Like KK said, it provides the framework for government.

 

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Kimball_Kinnison  12552 posts
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 10/11/05 6:31pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
DARTH-SHREDDER posted:
Ok, but isn't the objective to make what is moral legal, and what is immoral illegal?

And besides why do people quote the constitution so much when talking about the new laws and ideas? Surely, they're debately morals too..... they must be quoting the consitution because it sets a stnadard of morality.
You don't seem to be grasping the difference between legality and morality.

Let me give you an example. I believe that pornography is morally abhorrant. It is flat-out wrong. However, I believe that is should not be illegal. I hold similar views about drinking alcohol.

Why is that? Because morality can vary quite a bit from one person to another. The law isn;t there to dictate anyone's morals. It is there to exercise the will of the People.

As Ikrit-Man points out, the Constitution doesn't even define legality in most cases. It grants powers and places prohibitions, and then leaves the matter of legality to the legislature to determine within those powers. That is specifically designed to allow the People, whose morality may change considerably over time, to vary the laws as they see fit within the powers granted by the Constitution. The Supreme Court should only enter into the matter if there is a question as to whether the legisalture or executive exceeded the authority granted by the Constitution.

In short, the law has little-to-nothing to do with right and wrong. It has everything to do with what is and is not legal.

Kimball Kinnison

 

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DARTH-SHREDDER  6503 posts
Registered: May '05
20928_Darth Vader<br>Galactic Heroes
Date Posted: 10/11/05 6:40pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Then tell me this:why do people always talk about the constitution says this and that for gay marriage and things like that....

 

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Kimball_Kinnison  12552 posts
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 10/11/05 6:44pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
DARTH-SHREDDER posted:
Then tell me this:why do people always talk about the constitution says this and that for gay marriage and things like that....
To use gay marriage as an example:

The question is whether or not Congress has the authority under the Constitution to pass the Defense of Marriage Act. The question also is whether the Constitution requires one state to recognize a gay marriage performed in another state, or whether it allows marriage laws (defining marriage as between a man and a woman) as they are currently written.

The question before the courts isn't whether it is right or wrong, but whether it falls within the powers granted by the People to the government.

Kimball Kinnison

 

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DARTH-SHREDDER  6503 posts
Registered: May '05
20928_Darth Vader<br>Galactic Heroes
Date Posted: 10/11/05 6:54pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
And since the constitution does talk about that......

 

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LostOnHoth  4460 posts
Registered: Feb '00
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Date Posted: 10/11/05 6:58pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort. - Date Edited: 10/11/05 6:59pm (1 edits total) Edited By: LostOnHoth
Does the US Constitution reserve specific legislating powers to the Federal Government in respect of certain matters, if so what are they?

 

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Kimball_Kinnison  12552 posts
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 10/12/05 4:59am Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort. - Date Edited: 10/12/05 5:00am (1 edits total) Edited By: Kimball_Kinnison
LostOnHoth posted:
Does the US Constitution reserve specific legislating powers to the Federal Government in respect of certain matters, if so what are they?
Yes, it does. You can find those powers in Article I of the Constitution (specifically Sections 8-10):
Article I posted:
Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes; (KK: This is possibly the most abused clause in the Constitution, as it is used to justify all manner of federal laws.)

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

Section 9. The migration or importation of such persons as any of the states now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each person.

The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

No capitation, or other direct, tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken. (KK: Repealed through the 16th Amendment)

No tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any state.

No preference shall be given by any regulation of commerce or revenue to the ports of one state over those of another: nor shall vessels bound to, or from, one state, be obliged to enter, clear or pay duties in another.

No money shall be drawn from the treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law; and a regular statement and account of receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time.

No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.

Section 10. No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.

No state shall, without the consent of the Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection laws: and the net produce of all duties and imposts, laid by any state on imports or exports, shall be for the use of the treasury of the United States; and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and control of the Congress.

No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.
Those three sections outline the separation of powers, not just horizontally (between branches of the federal government), but vertically, too (between the federal and state governments).

Kimball Kinnison

 

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LostOnHoth  4460 posts
Registered: Feb '00
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Date Posted: 10/12/05 3:39pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort. - Date Edited: 10/12/05 3:40pm (1 edits total) Edited By: LostOnHoth
Thanks KK. I think that by setting out the exclusive powers of the Federal Government it makes it easier for people to grasp the structural nature of the American Constitution as creating a framework for the making of laws at different levels rather than setting out the specific content of those laws.

The Australian Constitution is pretty much the same - it reserves exclusive law making powers to the Commomwealth Parliament in respect of certain subject matters, taxation, currency, banking, marriage, divorce, naval and military force etc etc but leaves pretty much everything else to the States (plenary powers) -in the event that there is an inconsistency between a law of the State and a law of the Commonwealth then the Commonwealth law prevails and the State law is invalid to the extent of the inconsistency.

 

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DARTH-SHREDDER  6503 posts
Registered: May '05
20928_Darth Vader<br>Galactic Heroes
Date Posted: 10/12/05 4:30pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort. - Date Edited: 10/12/05 5:28pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DARTH-SHREDDER
I think maybe the constitution was intended to be just a guid for what the governement can and can't do but it also states laws, which are based on morality. Like the alcohol ammendment, and the firarms ammendment, it tells what a citizen can and can't do, based on what is right for them to do.

And anyway, if the constitution doesn't talk about something like gay marriage, then what do we do?

 

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LostOnHoth  4460 posts
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Date Posted: 10/12/05 4:42pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Doesn't the Declaration of Independence have those "all men are created equal" words rather than the Constitution?

 

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Special_Fred  1808 posts
Registered: Jul '03
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Date Posted: 10/12/05 4:44pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort. - Date Edited: 10/12/05 4:47pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Special_Fred
...if the constitution is purely stating what the governement can and can't do, then why does it say "all men are created equal?"

It does not.

Like the alcohol ammendment, and the firarms ammendment, it tells what a citizen can and can't do...

No, it says what the government can and cannot do. "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." It doesn't just guarantee the right of the people to keep and bear arms (although that is an extremely important part of the amendment). It also forbids the government from infringing upon the right to keep and bear arms. "...the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited...The Congress and the several States shall have concurrent power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation." That doesn't say whether the manufacture, sale, or transportation of alcohol is right or wrong, it only says how the government is allowed to interfere with it.

And anyway, if the constitution doesn't talk about something like gay marriage, then what do we do?

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Doesn't the Declaration of Independence have those "all men are created equal" words rather than the Constitution?

Yes, it does.

 

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ShaneP  12620 posts
Title: Lucasfilm Projects Gremlin(Manager )
Registered: Mar '01
8208_ANH Poster
Date Posted: 10/12/05 4:50pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Darth Shredder
then why does it say "all men are created equal?"

doh!

 

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DARTH-SHREDDER  6503 posts
Registered: May '05
20928_Darth Vader<br>Galactic Heroes
Date Posted: 10/12/05 5:28pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
LostOnHoth posted:
Doesn't the Declaration of Independence have those "all men are created equal" words rather than the Constitution?


Yes, my mistake.

 

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Obi-Wan McCartney  8597 posts
Registered: Aug '99
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Date Posted: 10/13/05 9:23am Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
I was hoping to discuss the point of contention that usually separates the liberals from the conservatives:

The right to privacy. This has been used by liberals to keep conservatives from legislating morality. Perhaps thats an oversimplification, but that's how i see it.

Does the right to privacy exist? According to the Supreme Court, absolutely.

Whether you believe a right of privacy exists largely identifies your approach to constitutional construction.

What do you think? I believe teh 1st, 4th, 5th, and 9th amendment heavily imply a right of privacy, even if it wasn't explicitly spelled out.

Again, I use the example that while the right to engage in sexual congress with your spouse in your own home is not explicitly spelled out in the constitution, I believe it would be protected by the constitution in that no state could create such a law (for many reasons, right to privacy being one of them.)

 

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ShaneP  12620 posts
Title: Lucasfilm Projects Gremlin(Manager )
Registered: Mar '01
8208_ANH Poster
Date Posted: 10/13/05 11:57am Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
But there's the difference right there: you see in those amendments "implied", not explicit, powers.

The bill of rights was pushed by Jefferson and the anti-federalists to codify some explicit rights away from the central government.


So while the articles stated what each branch could do, the bill of rights stated what the central government could not do.

Obi-Wan, the supreme court also said it could decide a presidential election too. peace

Be careful what you wish for... skull

 

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