Author Topic: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Kimball_Kinnison  12552 posts
Registered: Oct '01
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Date Posted: 10/17/05 5:51pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Seriously? What are the major greviences with the Supreme Court, other than the right-wing battle to pack the court with right wingers?

Actually, my biggest beef with the Supreme Court isn't over the "right to privacy", but over the blatant abuse of the Commerce Clause. It was never meant to be used as a thin excuse veneer to let the federal government stick its nose into every aspect of our lives. The current interpretation undermines the entire purpose of us having a separation of powers between the federal and state levels.

It is by far the most abused clause in the Constitution.

Kimball Kinnison

 

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DARTH-SHREDDER  6503 posts
Registered: May '05
20928_Darth Vader<br>Galactic Heroes
Date Posted: 10/17/05 6:34pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Kimball, you didn't respond to something:

DARTH-SHREDDER posted:
Kimball, you say the federal government doesn have any powers that aren't granted to it by the people, or already in the constituion. But when new things come up, the federal governement does act on them and make federal laws against them. Like the environment for example. The government has made plenty of laws restricting what people do to the environement. But the constitution doesn't talk about the evironment at all. So then how could the federal governement restrcit pollution. The constitution doesn't grant it that power. So I guess the government couldn't have done that. Even thought they did. And nobody said they were out of place.

I mean the government makes tons of federal laws all the time, and you say the only ones they are allowed to make are the ones granted in the constitution? That's a very small amount, not to mention we don't have an ammendment for all federal laws made.

 

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IkritMan  9486 posts
Registered: Sep '02
20894_Atris
Date Posted: 10/17/05 6:42pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
DARTH-SHREDDER posted:
Kimball, you say the federal government doesn have any powers that aren't granted to it by the people, or already in the constituion. But when new things come up, the federal governement does act on them and make federal laws against them.


Right, because many of said "new" things are provided for in the Constitution.

DARTH-SHREDDER posted:
Like the environment for example. The government has made plenty of laws restricting what people do to the environement. But the constitution doesn't talk about the evironment at all. So then how could the federal governement restrcit pollution. The constitution doesn't grant it that power. So I guess the government couldn't have done that. Even thought they did. And nobody said they were out of place.


That's because the Constitution gives them that power in Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution of the United States. happy

DARTH-SHREDDER posted:
I mean the government makes tons of federal laws all the time, and you say the only ones they are allowed to make are the ones granted in the constitution?


Could you provide more examples? The last one you gave was all but erroneous.

 

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Kimball_Kinnison  12552 posts
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 10/17/05 6:49pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Sorry about that. I had written an answer to that post, but it must not have gone through.

The answer to that can actually be found in my last post: the Commerce Clause, and the abuse of that clause.

The roots of it go back to FDR and the New Deal. Many of his first round of programs were ruled unconstitutional because the federal government lacked authority to interfere in intrastate commerce. Over time (and a series of Supreme Court appointments), FDR was able to get the Supreme Court to alter its interpretation of the Commerce Clause, and allow many of his programs. Since then, the Court has continued to widen that interpreatation until it basically argues that all commerce is considered interstate commerce.

That may be how things are now, but that's not the way that the Constitution set up, and it's not the authority granted by the People. The authority came not from the People, but from the Supreme Court, who wrongly usurped that authority.

Kimball Kinnison

 

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LostOnHoth  4460 posts
Registered: Feb '00
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Date Posted: 10/17/05 7:46pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
KK In many of your posts you claim that "the People" grant power to the government and only "the People" should be able take power away from the governement and not by a decision of the Supreme Court.

In the US system how do "the People" specifically grant power and how do "the People" specifically take that power away? What is the process.

I only ask as I understand that because voting is not compulsory in the US and therefore only a small minority actually vote.

This begs the question: how do "the People" exercise their power - how do they "speak"?



 

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DARTH-SHREDDER  6503 posts
Registered: May '05
20928_Darth Vader<br>Galactic Heroes
Date Posted: 10/17/05 8:02pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Kimball_Kinnison posted:
Sorry about that. I had written an answer to that post, but it must not have gone through.

The answer to that can actually be found in my last post: the Commerce Clause, and the abuse of that clause.

The roots of it go back to FDR and the New Deal. Many of his first round of programs were ruled unconstitutional because the federal government lacked authority to interfere in intrastate commerce. Over time (and a series of Supreme Court appointments), FDR was able to get the Supreme Court to alter its interpretation of the Commerce Clause, and allow many of his programs. Since then, the Court has continued to widen that interpreatation until it basically argues that all commerce is considered interstate commerce.

That may be how things are now, but that's not the way that the Constitution set up, and it's not the authority granted by the People. The authority came not from the People, but from the Supreme Court, who wrongly usurped that authority.

Kimball Kinnison


So then, all these things the government does now like protect the environment are unconstitutional, really, but it still goes by?

 

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Obi-Wan McCartney  8597 posts
Registered: Aug '99
13616_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 10/17/05 9:34pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Yeah, Kimball, that's a valid beef, but at this point, I don't see how you rectify it. I don't think Harriet Miers or John Roberts is going to overrule the last fifty years of Supreme Court precedent, not to mention federal legislation that has gone on.
I mean, congress passed all those laws that were upheld as valid under the commerce clause.

How the heck are you going to stuff that genie back in the bottle? If you think about it, what you are proposing is fairly radical for today.

I also think you might be confusing the United States under the constitution with what was originally intended with the article of confederation...

 

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ShaneP  12620 posts
Title: Lucasfilm Projects Gremlin(Manager )
Registered: Mar '01
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Date Posted: 10/18/05 2:24pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
OWM
I also think you might be confusing the United States under the constitution with what was originally intended with the article of confederation...

If you can honestly say that about him, with his specific quotes from the document itself, then he's not the one who is confusing anything.

alien_1

 

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Obi-Wan McCartney  8597 posts
Registered: Aug '99
13616_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 10/18/05 2:45pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
You've taken the comments out of context, I am simply suggesting that the extreme limitations on federal power (well, at least extreme by todays standards, cause lets face it, is there anything the feds CAN'T legislate?) that Kimball espouses might be closer to what was envisioned when the articles were the governing doctrines.

Regardless, I think that the abuse of the commerce clause has far less to do with the Supreme Court than it has to do with Congress itself. I suppose a valid beef would be that the Supreme Court didn't rule that those laws were unconstitutional.

But then you'd have all this conservative bellyaching over how an unelected body was "legislating from the bench" that "Congress should make the laws, not the Supreme Court."

What I'm saying is, I don't see conservative justices really doing away with the scope of federal legislation. Where was the outrage on the right over Congress's abusive power grab in the Terri Shiavo case?

Problem is, on both sides, liberal or conservative, the overreaching starts because each side believes its doing something morally necessary.

 

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ShaneP  12620 posts
Title: Lucasfilm Projects Gremlin(Manager )
Registered: Mar '01
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Date Posted: 10/18/05 3:00pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort. - Date Edited: 10/18/05 3:04pm (2 edits total) Edited By: ShaneP
Obi-Wan
Problem is, on both sides, liberal or conservative, the overreaching starts because each side believes its doing something morally necessary.

No, the overreaching continues because we, the people, allow the judiciary to continue in its activist mode instead of forcing it back into its limited powers explicity set forth in the constitution.

Obi-Wan
I am simply suggesting that the extreme limitations on federal power that Kimball espouses might be closer to what was envisioned when the articles were the governing doctrines.

No, he's espousing those limitations by specifically quoting from the constitution itself. What is so difficult to grasp here?

And have you ever read the Articles of Confederation? If so, you wouldn't suggest that's what Kimball is referring to because the differences between the confederated and the federated republic are very clear in most cases.

For one thing: each state was its own sovereign nation under confederation.


 

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Obi-Wan McCartney  8597 posts
Registered: Aug '99
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Date Posted: 10/18/05 4:07pm Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Yo, you are totally misunderstanding my point, I'm not saying he misread constitution or that he read the articles by mistake, I simply meant to allude to it becaues it had more powerful states with a very weak national government, whereas the constitution created a more powerful federal government.


ShaneP posted:
No, the overreaching continues because we, the people, allow the judiciary to continue in its activist mode instead of forcing it back into its limited powers explicity set forth in the constitution.


Now, if you have a beef with the commerce clause being abused, blame Congress, they are the ones writing all those laws! You can't blame the Supreme COurt, I mean, most of you probably think Marbury v. Madison was the start of the judicial usurping of power. SO what, you are mad that they DIDN'T usurp power delegated to Congress? I don't get it. confused

 

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Kimball_Kinnison  12552 posts
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 10/19/05 5:25am Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Obi-Wan McCartney posted:
Yo, you are totally misunderstanding my point, I'm not saying he misread constitution or that he read the articles by mistake, I simply meant to allude to it becaues it had more powerful states with a very weak national government, whereas the constitution created a more powerful federal government.
I find it interesting that you associuate my position with a "weak" federal government. I am advocating nothing of the sort.

The Constitution was designed to provide for equal but different powers between the state and federal levels. In outward matters, the government is supposed to be very strong. It has almost complete authority. However, in inward matters, it is supposed to be weak, with the states being strong. That's the whole point of federalism, and the Constitution is a federalist document.

Obi-Wan McCartney posted:
Now, if you have a beef with the commerce clause being abused, blame Congress, they are the ones writing all those laws! You can't blame the Supreme COurt, I mean, most of you probably think Marbury v. Madison was the start of the judicial usurping of power. SO what, you are mad that they DIDN'T usurp power delegated to Congress? I don't get it. confused
Make no mistake, all three branches of the federal government are to blame, but the solution has to start with the Supreme Court in order for it to be a lasting solution.

If Congress simply repeals the excessive laws, but the Supreme Court rulings that authorized such laws are not overturned, then a later Congress has almost no obstacles to reimplementing similar laws. However, if the Supreme Court moves to restrict the federal government to its proper sphere, it raises the bar a lot higher, and makes it far more difficult to move back to the excess.

Kimball Kinnison

 

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Obi-Wan McCartney  8597 posts
Registered: Aug '99
13616_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 10/19/05 7:51am Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Yeah, but who is going to do it? You know how many laws run afoul of your interpretation of the commerce clause? You think any Supreme Court Justice that is nominated by a politician of the two major parties is going to do that?

No way. No conservative, no liberal, would EVER cut off their power like that. Furthermore, not serious jurist could take the country back that many hundred years.

I'm not saying you're wrong in your interpretation, perhaps you are correct, but Harriet Miers certainly isn't going to do that. John Roberts isn't going to do that either.

 

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Kimball_Kinnison  12552 posts
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 10/19/05 8:05am Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
Obi-Wan McCartney posted:
No way. No conservative, no liberal, would EVER cut off their power like that. Furthermore, not serious jurist could take the country back that many hundred years.

I'm not saying you're wrong in your interpretation, perhaps you are correct, but Harriet Miers certainly isn't going to do that. John Roberts isn't going to do that either.
Oh, the hyperbole. It's not "that many hundred years". The major abuse of the Commerce Clause can be traced back to the 1930s and the New Deal. That's not even 75 years, let alone hundreds. Most of the abuse is only on the order of 50 years old. It's no older than Plessy was when Brown overruled it.

And no, neither John Roberts nor Harriet Miers are likely to completely restore the proper and reasonable interpretation of the Commerce Clause, but they'll get a lot closer than many of the more "progressive" justices out there. It's at least a movement in the right direction.

Kimball Kinnison

 

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Obi-Wan McCartney  8597 posts
Registered: Aug '99
13616_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 10/19/05 8:46am Subject: RE: The Nature of the American Constitution. Revised for your Comfort.
I disagree, the Supreme Court has been curbing the expansion of federal power for some time now, but I don't see them actively taking any steps to begin a reversal. But I suppose continuing to curb the expansion of the power is a good thing. I believe Roberts will not overrule settled law, he knows he can't just overturn decisions because he personally would have ruled differently.

Miers, on the other hand, if confirmed, seems more likely to expand federal power if it suits the conservative movement...

 

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