Author Topic: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration
KnightWriter  34477 posts
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Date Posted: 10/30/05 10:37am Subject: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration - Date Edited: 10/30/05 10:38am (1 edits total) Edited By: KnightWriter
Jonathan Alter posted an interesting column for Newsweek this week. Here's an excerpt:


This has been the Bush pattern. Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill presciently says a second tax cut is unaffordable if we want to fight in Iraq—he's fired. Bush's economic adviser Larry Lindsey presciently says the war will cost between $100 billion and $200 billion (an underestimate)—he's fired. Army Gen. Eric Shinseki presciently says that winning in Iraq will require several hundred thousand troops—he's sent into early retirement. By contrast, CIA Director George Tenet, who presided over two of the greatest intelligence lapses in American history (9/11 and WMD in Iraq) and apparently helped spread "oppo ammo" to discredit the husband of a woman who had devoted her life to his agency, receives the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

The conventional Washington explanation is that this is just old-fashioned politics. As long as you don't lie to a grand jury, there's nothing illegal here. But the consequences of a bias for loyalty over debate—even internal debate—have been devastating. The same president who seeks democracy, transparency and dissent in Iraq is irritated by it at home. O'Neill tells his story in a book by Ron Suskind called "The Price of Loyalty," and that title is the missing link in explaining the failure of the Bush presidency. The price of loyalty is incompetence. Issues don't get aired; downside risks remain unassessed.

Instead of reaching out and encouraging disagreement, Bush let neocons like Libby and Paul Wolfowitz hijack his foreign policy. Amazingly, the pros and cons of invading Iraq were never even debated in the National Security Council. If you had doubts, like Colin Powell, you were marginalized. (Powell's former chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson, said last week that a "cabal" of isolated policymakers ran a government of dangerous "ineptitude.") Consider the case of Brent Scowcroft. According to last week's New Yorker, former president Bush has tried to arrange a meeting between his old national-security adviser (and best friend) and his son. But after Scowcroft wrote a 2002 op-ed piece titled "Don't Attack Saddam," the president has consistently refused his own father's request. Now we know that Bush's lack of curiosity has proved fatal.


What I'd like to discuss is not the war in Iraq or any other specific issue, but rather the apparent lack of disagreement in the White House and its ramifications for the administration and the country. The one person who provided strong disagreement on the Iraq war (Colin Powell) was ushered out, and had been marginalized before that. Others seem to have also met unfortunate fates. In general, President Bush seems to prize loyalty above all else and believes in surrounding himself with people who are deeply loyal to him. This is understandable, but he seems blind to or unconcerned with the cost of not having people who are willing to stand up and see things from different perspectives. As I see it, having people around you who are capable of providing alternative viewpoints and solutions is one of the most important elements of leadership. Surrounding yourself with people who are mostly or entirely like-minded can give the impression that a lot of smart people are agreeing with you, yet you're still only getting a small part of the overall picture. In short, it can lead to a disconnection from reality.

I'd like to hear from people who understand Bush's view of loyalty and who can offer a different perspective on it. I'm sure there are those who see it differently than me and may in fact agree with Bush's actions, or feel that the above picture is incomplete.

To recap, I'd like to discuss the Bush administration's tendency to prefer loyalty over healthy disagreement, the importance of dissent in general and the ramifications Bush's preference for loyalty over dissent has had on the country.

 

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Obi-Wan McCartney  8597 posts
Registered: Aug '99
13616_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 10/30/05 1:03pm Subject: RE: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration
Good luck, Knightwriter. I've been rattling off these particular stats about the Bush adminstrations habit of firing or getting rid of anyone who disagrees with them for awhile now, and no one on the other side seems to respond.

 

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ClonedEmperor  1274 posts
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Date Posted: 10/30/05 1:09pm Subject: RE: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration
The other side meaning Republicans? Well, let me answer than, since I am one. I agree with you, it doesnt look good for Bush to continue firing people who disagree with him on Iraq. Could it be for other reasons? Yep, but the fact is it makes it seem like "its my way or the highway"

 

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VoijaRisa  9169 posts
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6984_Vader<br>Galactic Heroes
Date Posted: 10/30/05 1:20pm Subject: RE: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration
ClonedEmperor posted on 10/30/05 1:09pm
the fact is it makes it seem like "its my way or the highway"
Congratulations on not saying anything useful and only restating the question. I believe the topic of discussion is why Bush feels the need to force his way and fire anyone that dares disagree instead of using the wonderful skill of compromise and actually listening for a change.

My take would be that Bush takes the idea that ignorance is bliss very seriously. By ignoring various problems, he feels that he won't have to deal with them.

 

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Epicauthor  1118 posts
Registered: Aug '02
14902_Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 10/30/05 1:32pm Subject: RE: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration
I think he set a "mission statement" for his administration which is "We have to remain united and present a strong front on everything." much like parents do with children. What he failed to realize was that a. We aren't children and to treat his countrymen like that insults our intellegence and b. in the real world there needs to be questions and policies need to be looked at (audited if you will) to ensure there are no errors. When people point out anything that might go wrong, he gets rid of them instead of actually looking at their objection because it cuts into his view of solidarity "for the kids sake."

 

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KnightWriter  34477 posts
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Date Posted: 10/30/05 1:41pm Subject: RE: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration
I think he set a "mission statement" for his administration which is "We have to remain united and present a strong front on everything." much like parents do with children.

It goes beyond that, though. Internal dissent within the administration seems to be quashed and/or heavily discouraged, even if the general public doesn't know about it. That kind of unity strikes me as both dangerous and foolish.

Perhaps I'm not understanding things properly, and I hope someone can speak up for a more accurate picture if that's the case.

 

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JediTre11  1505 posts
Registered: Mar '01
15586_Duel
Date Posted: 10/30/05 2:03pm Subject: RE: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration
To recap, I'd like to discuss the Bush administration's tendency to prefer loyalty over healthy disagreement, the importance of dissent in general and the ramifications Bush's preference for loyalty over dissent has had on the country.
I feel so grown up, I just wrote my senator about this.

I would add to the list of examples in the article, President Bush saying "Brownie is doing a heck of a job..." when clearly he wasn't. Clearly, he was unqualified for the job, having never managed an emergency response agency, beyond testing his own smoke alarms. But the comment isn't what I notice most. What I notice is all the people around him clapping. He actually has people around him that agree with that statement? Ok, it might have been for show, next time script it better.

Another example. Harriet Meirs, seems like nothing but an appointment for a friend. A promotion for loyalty, perhaps a little underqualified like Brownie. Thankfully, dissent has not completely left the legislative branch. Ofcourse, the executive cannot fire members of the legislative.

I can come to two different conclusion. 1) The accusations of cronyinsm are true, and perhaps an underestimate. 2) There is a bubble around the president, of misinformation, that allows appointments like this to occur. Certainly it seems like the administration would have tested the waters with Miers enough to anticipate the level of opposition. They didn't and now it looks bad.

 

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Vezner  8450 posts
Registered: Dec '01
6519_Tycho Celchu
Date Posted: 10/30/05 2:15pm Subject: RE: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration
VoijaRisa posted:
ClonedEmperor posted on 10/30/05 1:09pm
the fact is it makes it seem like "its my way or the highway"
Congratulations on not saying anything useful and only restating the question. I believe the topic of discussion is why Bush feels the need to force his way and fire anyone that dares disagree instead of using the wonderful skill of compromise and actually listening for a change.

My take would be that Bush takes the idea that ignorance is bliss very seriously. By ignoring various problems, he feels that he won't have to deal with them.


*resists...the...urge...to...flame!*

 

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Cyprusg  2270 posts
Registered: Nov '02
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Date Posted: 10/30/05 2:27pm Subject: RE: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration
KnightWriter posted:
I think he set a "mission statement" for his administration which is "We have to remain united and present a strong front on everything." much like parents do with children.

It goes beyond that, though. Internal dissent within the administration seems to be quashed and/or heavily discouraged, even if the general public doesn't know about it. That kind of unity strikes me as both dangerous and foolish.

Perhaps I'm not understanding things properly, and I hope someone can speak up for a more accurate picture if that's the case.


Maybe it's because more than ever a political party is united in their ideology? You look at the Republican party and their ideology is clearly defined, christians, family values, against abortion, against gun control, etc... Democrats on the other hand have a lot more varying views, they're not as easily defined, making them far less united. As we saw in the latest election the only unifying factor was that they hated George Bush. So what you get is political tunnel vision, where Republicans have a clear objective and anyone that steps outside that vision gets stepped on, republican or not.

 

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VoijaRisa  9169 posts
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Date Posted: 10/30/05 2:39pm Subject: RE: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration
Cyprusg posted:
Maybe it's because more than ever a political party is united in their ideology? You look at the Republican party and their ideology is clearly defined, christians, family values, against abortion, against gun control, etc... Democrats on the other hand have a lot more varying views, they're not as easily defined, making them far less united. As we saw in the latest election the only unifying factor was that they hated George Bush. So what you get is political tunnel vision, where Republicans have a clear objective and anyone that steps outside that vision gets stepped on, republican or not.
I think the very fact that Bush is having to fire people is a clear indication that the republican party is not as united as they'd like to pretend.

I saw a really well written article on this topic earlier this week in one of the severl blogs I follow. I'll see if I can't dig it up.

 

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Obi-Wan McCartney  8597 posts
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13616_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 10/30/05 2:41pm Subject: RE: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration
Cyprus, it's not like the people dissented over ideology, they dissented over feasability! They were saying "this isn't going to work." And Bush said "YOU aren't going to work, not here anyway!"

 

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KnightWriter  34477 posts
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Date Posted: 10/30/05 3:00pm Subject: RE: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration
I wouldn't make the mistake of saying that it's always Bush who fires people, or at least is always the driving force behind it. I think the fear or dislike of dissent comes as much from other key members of the administration as it does from Bush, and that collectively, they're responsible for the atmosphere of unity at all costs.

 

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Gonk  10393 posts
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Date Posted: 10/30/05 4:07pm Subject: RE: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration
This is something I think would lend credence to the validity of the subject.

Since I saw DM chastized for posting something without giving an opinion on it (which I disagree with, as long as the material is related to debate) -- well, I think it sucks.

But the article posts a list of 42 people that have left the Bush administration arguably for reasons such as this. Some of you may find that some names are not quite in the same caliber as O'Niel and Richard Clarke -- that is, they might be good officials but did not leave under the same sort of disagreement and pressure. Byt he same token, keep in mind that Joe Wilson himself or his wife doesn't seem to be on the list that I can see. If you see it there, let me know.

 

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Ender_Sai  28400 posts
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44324_Kyle Katarn
Date Posted: 10/30/05 4:38pm Subject: RE: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration
Gonk, it's been part of the Senate rules for years; just not always enforced. OWM has been chastised for it too. So will anyone be who merely posts an article. happy

KW, great topic. Though I suspect from Vezner's "contribution" above we can expect some "Clinton did worse", thus implying you can't say bad things about Dubya; it will be a good trial run for the partisan claptrap rule from the FG... grin

I think it's a worrying, discernable trend in this administration. Clinton was surely guilty of it too, but they tended to be less obvious and heavy-handed in that Administration and merely relocated you somewhere less offensive.

For Bush, it seems, if he doesn't like the message the messenger is facing a firing squad of sorts. Where they cannot simply fire someone, they work at discrediting them. Not listed already is Dr Mohammed al-Baredi, head of the IAEA, who disagreed with US guesstimates over WMD in Iraq. The US questioned his competency, though he was vindicated by the deafening silence coming out of the Iraqi WMD recovery programmes. This year he was awarded a Nobel Prize.

Ultimately, I think this is harmful. Administrations are not perfect nor should we expect perfection from our leaders; we should instead seek integrity and honesty. And an honest leader should welcome criticism in part, if not in whole; merely isolating dissenters from within amplifies critics. Critics that the Bush Administration has no shortage whatsoever of.

E_S

 

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Gonk  10393 posts
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Date Posted: 10/30/05 4:49pm Subject: RE: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration
As for a more thought-out opinion:

Before discussing Bush in particular we should also make mention of the fact that the basic elements of this occur in not only other American administrations, but administrations all over the globe to varying degrees. The main ways in which Bush's versions of cronyism differ is the following:

A) The "cronies" are placed in more powerful positions

B) Loyalty of the cronies and non-cronies is strictly enforced

Let me give an example in my own nation: Jean Chretien was the former Prime Minister of the United States. For most of his administration, his Fincance Minister was a man named Paul Martin.

As many of you know, Paul Martin eventually came at odds with Chretien and suspiciously left the Finance Ministry. But this was after YEARS of acrimony and Martin obviously eying Chretien's job. It was sad to see a working relationship finally dash itself, but at the same time the two men who had different ideas on how to do business worked in the same cabinet from about 1993 to 2001 or so. And looking at the turnaround Canada had during the 90s, it's easy to see how relationships like this may have aided the country as a whole.

With Bush, unfortunately, it's unlikely to see such a relationship lasting more than a month. And this is singular to him in modern history. I would posit that while Bush posits himself to be another Ronald Reagan, Reagan himself was more unique (and quite possibly not completely lucid) and was quick to take in Bush's father as his VP, though the two men were very, very different in political outlook.

George W Bush is not as much like Ronald Reagan as he is like Andrew Jackson. He is ignorant, but not because he is stupid -- as I've said before, he is simply LAZY. This is nothing connected to his lengthy vacations, which in fact contribute to his health: he simply has not the patience nor the inclination to countenance his mistakes. Why? Because if he made a mistake it leads to the question of why he made it. Which leads to the question of will he make more. Which leads to the question of if he's the right man for the job at all.

In a way, he's not unlike George Lucas's approach to films: he's easily satisfied by mediocre results because after all, he appointed many of the people who gained them, and thier performance reflects on him.

He values loyalty because his administration is based not on professionalism, but friendship and loyalty.

But you know, in a way this is exactly what America has been building to since 1980. America wants someone like the common man in the White House. Well, there's plenty that's common about GWB. Unfortunately it also showcases why the common man shouldn't be the model for the President of the United States, and you shouldn't treat the position as if you've just won the lottery and will take the oppertunity to give back to everyone who's done good by you. You should get on with running the country.

 

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Darth Mischievous  14892 posts
Registered: Oct '99
40336_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 10/30/05 5:47pm Subject: RE: Loyalty and disagreement in the Bush administration
Of course, there is both loyalty and disagreement behind closed doors. There is a good deal of cronyism going on as well.

Getting Jonathan Alter's perspective such as above is generally like asking a liberal Democrat what he thinks of the Administration's inner workings. You're simply not going to get an objective viewpoint from him in that op-ed piece.

However, the Bush Administration would be wise to take criticism more constructively and be open to differing policy perspectives (like taking opinions like Colin Powell's more seriously).

 

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