Jedi Council Forums - Capital Punishment Discussion Thread

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Author	Topic: Capital Punishment Discussion Thread
Obi-Wan McCartney Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 12/9/05 8:13am Subject: RE: 1,000 execution has been carried out
	Shredder Keep up the good fight. One thing though, although I think Kimball Kinneson and I-man share a constitutional philosophy that is not only incorrect but not shared by a single respected (or non respected) member of the judicial branch (regardless of political persuasion), it does seem constitutional for states to have the death penalty. History tells us the death penalty was constitutional since the founders were in the habit of it accepting its practice. But remember, the founders weren't perfect, in fact, far from it. We need to remember that by today's standards, most of them would be branded bigoted slave owning misogynists. However, Shredder, what you might want to focus on is the fact that the death penalty, in some cases, COULD be seen as a violation of the 8th amendments' cruel and unusual punishment clause. If enough states bar the practice, then I think the argument could be made that the practice has become cruel and unusual. Remember Furman v. Georgia, the Supreme Court said that the death penalty, while not unconstitutional per se, might be unconstitutional in practice. In that case, it seemed unconstitutional because the application was discriminatory, there was evidence that it was being applied in a racially offensive manner (pretty much just blacks were getting killed by the state, whites got more often got life.) There were also problems with the quality of lawyers, which is why many states like Illinois, as well as the federal government, imposed specific trial and capital offense bars to ensure that the attorneys handling these cases were competent. Remember the idea of evolving standards of decency. A few hundred years ago, it might not have been cruel and unusual to inflict corporal punishment wantonly on criminals, now, not so much. Considering that most of the civilized world has done away with the practice, it seems like we should do away with it too. I can't believe so many people who call themselves "christians" or believe that this is a "christian nation" would allow the abhorrant practice of capital punishment. Jesus supposedly sacrificed himself for our sins, it seems odd that he would be down with the practice of sacrificing others for the sake of "justice." -----signature----- God Bless J-Rod's Wife! Obi-Wan McCartney: Model Forum Member since 1999! America's Beatles are far better than England's precious Rolling Stones
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DeathStar1977 Registered: Jan '03	Date Posted: 12/9/05 12:08pm Subject: RE: 1,000 execution has been carried out
	John McAdams? Is he related to George McWashington?
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Jedi-Washington Registered: Aug '03	Date Posted: 12/9/05 4:34pm Subject: RE: 1,000 execution has been carried out
	According to the way states are supposed to be, it is fair for them to have their own execution methods and laws for its use. We are the united states, not just one country. We're individual states that have all joined together to make a larger representative body. I do think it would be in the best intrest of America to make every Death sentance a federal case or to at least have them executed under the federal government instead of the states, but like I said, it's not in the right of the federal government to do that. Myself, I loath the death pentalty because I don't think that's a good way of dealing with the problem. People might commit atrocities, but I think we can get more out of them as people by putting them to work and in social confinement. Sure, some say that its possible to get out of prison, yes it is. But I don't think we should be worried about the people under highest security in those conditions. Every move of high risk individuals is watched, and high security prisons are placed in very rural areas most of the time, as to make survival almost impossible or impractical. It's the lower security prisons that are worrysome. But my family is medical, and all state medical boards forbid the involvement of medicine for the use of execution, which I support. People involved in saving lives shouldn't be using their skills to kill. A person who has been sentanced to capitol punishment should not be released back into the world unless strong evidense is found that makes them innocent. But by no means should they be executed. It's too barbarac, and I don't think it dilivers the kind of punch that committers of atrocities should be getting. ~JW -----signature----- Whee! [Insert insperational quote from clichéd book or movie]
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DARTH-SHREDDER Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 12/9/05 5:00pm Subject: RE: 1,000 execution has been carried out - Date Edited: 12/9/05 6:24pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DARTH-SHREDDER
	That's not what the Constitution says. Go read the Tenth Amendment again. It says that the powers not given to the federal government, nor prohibited to the states, are reserved for the states. The Constitution does not give the power to decide all crimes and punishments to the federal government, nor does it forbid that power to the states. That's right there, in plain English, in the Constitution. You may not want it there, but that doesn't remove it. Notice the keyword in my original statement: DARTH-SHREDDER posted: That line of logic isn't true and you know it. The idea that anything not in the Constitution was obviously intended to be left up to the states. Yes, the constitution does give the state the powers not given to the federal government. However, that doesn't mean the the original authors of the Constitution had kept in mind every last right the states would have, and certainly not about issues that were way after their time. Using your logic, then, individual states shouldn't have the authority to set their own criminal codes, nor establish punishments for those crimes. Every crime should be federal in nature. Otherwise it is unfair, because some people could be charged with a crime for one action while others who perform the same crime in another jurisdiction are charged with another crime. By the same sort of logic, speeding should be a federal crime. After all, in one state, they might charge you $10 per mile/hour over the limit, while in another they might only charge you $5. As I mentioned before (and you ignored), some states offer parole to convicted criminals. Virginia does not. Is that fair? Some states have a "three strikes" policy for violent crimes (mandating life in prison for a third offense), while others don't. Is that fair? The only way to get what you seem to be asking for is for the authority of the state governments to make laws to be entirely abolished, and the only criminal code we have be federal in nature. That would be a complete and utter disaster for the entire country. All issues aren't the same. The death penalty is a very serious issue and has everlasting effects. It certainly can't be compared to a traffic ticket. I realize that in a sense, when states have different laws, it creates inequality. But the death penalty is so serious and so contraversial (not to mention the moraltiy side of the debate), that it would need consideration to be a federal law, which by the way, are made for this sort of reason in alot of cases. -----signature----- The bible is a pathway to many beliefs some consider to be ignorant. Only a sith deals in absolutes....or a conservative. I have a big problem with religion and rednecks. Proud tree hugger. \m/ Rock on/
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DARTH-SHREDDER Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 12/9/05 7:06pm Subject: RE: 1,000 execution has been carried out
	Shredder Keep up the good fight. Thanks. One thing though, although I think Kimball Kinneson and I-man share a constitutional philosophy that is not only incorrect but not shared by a single respected (or non respected) member of the judicial branch (regardless of political persuasion), it does seem constitutional for states to have the death penalty. Well, I wasn't really arguing that it was unconstitutional, and I wasn't arguing that it was constitutinal, I was simply saying that if some states have it and others don't, then that wouldn't be fair. I'm not into arguing the Constitution mostly because it doesn't change whether the current situation is a good one or not. Considering that most of the civilized world has done away with the practice, it seems like we should do away with it too. I can't believe so many people who call themselves "christians" or believe that this is a "christian nation" would allow the abhorrant practice of capital punishment. Jesus supposedly sacrificed himself for our sins, it seems odd that he would be down with the practice of sacrificing others for the sake of "justice." Definately. -----signature----- The bible is a pathway to many beliefs some consider to be ignorant. Only a sith deals in absolutes....or a conservative. I have a big problem with religion and rednecks. Proud tree hugger. \m/ Rock on/
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severian28 Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 12/9/05 7:32pm Subject: RE: 1,000 execution has been carried out
	Save Tookie ! -----signature----- " Bring the sled " - Al Swearengen " Dying all the time. Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind. Aint life unkind? " - The Rolling Stones
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Darth Mischievous Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 12/9/05 7:37pm Subject: RE: 1,000 execution has been carried out
	It seems you're utilizing an argument of convenience concerning religion and the death penalty, OWM, even though you're a stern proponent of the inserted 'separation of church and state' clause in the US Constitution by the judiciary. Although I'm not a proponent of capital punishment, I can see the rationale that the punishment should be the responsibility for the crime (e.g., not used as a deterrent, but as a punishment). I simply see life in prison under hard labor (without all the conveniences, like TV and so on) a much harsher sentence. I do have more understanding for the imposition of the death penalty under special circumstances and in military settings (treason in war, for example). KK is demonstrated the facts of the matter, not opinion. It's in the Constitution. If you don't like it, then work for an Amendment banning capital punishment. Otherwise, it is Constitutional and left to the States. -----signature----- "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give it to those who are not." --Thomas Jefferson
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J-Rod Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 12/9/05 8:14pm Subject: RE: 1,000 execution has been carried out
	severian28 posted: Save Tookie ! I'll actually agree with that. From everything that I can find, he is repentant and is actually taking the opportunity to correct some of his past by having a positive affect on children. While nothing can bring back the people that he's killed, I believe that if a man can and wants to undo some of the damage he's caused, he should be allowed. The big question is does he add more to society alive. In this case I believe he does. -----signature----- God Bless Barack Obama Darth_wanderguard :"Maybe you're not quite as crazy as people say you are" Gamertag: zZ J ROD Zz
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DARTH-SHREDDER Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 12/9/05 8:17pm Subject: RE: 1,000 execution has been carried out
	No, those powers not given to the federal government nor prohibited to the states are reserved to the states, dude. It's right there in the Constitution! That's irrefutable; nothing to do with opinion there. Yes, but that doesn't mean the orginial authors of the Constitution thought about every single last issue, and certianly not ones going on today. The death penalty is definately a more significant issue today than it was then. You used the argument that rights should be applied equally to the states for fairness, but the right not to be punished by execution doesn't exist. Since it's not a right, there is no need to make sure it is used equally in all of the states. I agree that it's not unconstitutional to have different state laws. But I do think it's unfair. So there is a need to make sure it's equal: to be fair. But yeah, if the states had different laws on the issue it wouldn't be unconstitutional. Right, and since neither marriage nor "the right to not be executed as a punishment for homicide" are rights, your initial argument doesn't hold. I think this argument orginated from myself saying that it's only fair that all states should have the same laws for the death penalty and marriage. You said no, if you wanted those rights you should move to a different state. I said that in my opinion, those two things should be universal rights, in which case some state not giving those rights wouldn't satisfy my opinion. I never said they were rights that people currently have. Holy crap! I didn't think you'd actually come out and show sympathy for them; I meant it as a joke. Seriously, different states have different laws regarding crime directly reflecting that micro-populations views and beliefs. Since when can we force our opinions on someone if their decisions don't affect civil rights? Um, there are plenty of federal laws that are simply put in place because they are good laws. As I've stated, I think the state should be unified in the death penalty, so potenially that could become a law if Congress deemed it to become that way. (perhaps revision to the Constitution) Equality isn't broken. People are still convicted the same way. All murderers who receive the death penalty are treated the exact same way before the law. For something as serious in nature as this, not to mention contraversial, I don't consider it to be equal if Texas executes the majority of the people. Of course you can apply this to smaller laws, and say nothing is equal, but this one is bgger. Alot bigger. So we can vacuum out convicts' brains? At least that won't be barbaric, right? I'd rather spend life in prison than be executed. This respone was to me asking you to provide proof that it's more expensive to care for someone in jail than it is to execute them. Obviously you thought you were responding to something different. Right, so even if you admit that it is a miniscule difference, there is more of a deterrent with a death penalty. NO! Peole don't try to get caught doing something. Of course they desperately don't want to get punished! Some just do it anyway, period. Nobody is going to rethink committing a crime because of the death penalty! You don't seem to be grasping the concept of they're both like the end of the world for someone, therefore having the same effect of either 1) pursuading the person not to do the crime or 2) have no effect on those who will commit a crime no matter what. That is true for some people, but not for others. If there is even one person in the US who would not commit murder if he would be executed for it (and you cannot argue that one out of 300 million people would reason this), then you must agree that it would be worth saving that one victim's life (seeing as how you treasure the life of murderers) if it meant exterminating murderers. No, because you're still murdering all those murders...for one person....who I still find to be non-existent. (Others have responded to this better than me) -----signature----- The bible is a pathway to many beliefs some consider to be ignorant. Only a sith deals in absolutes....or a conservative. I have a big problem with religion and rednecks. Proud tree hugger. \m/ Rock on/
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Darth Mischievous Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 12/9/05 8:25pm Subject: RE: 1,000 execution has been carried out - Date Edited: 12/9/05 8:26pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Darth Mischievous
	'Tookie' has never taken responsibility for the murders he committed, and he refuses to counsel gang members in prison to help the police break up the gangs by becoming informants. He feels that being a 'rat' is worse than doing the right thing. That sounds like he's not truly repentant to me, especially since the lack of responsibility he takes for what he did. If the man was truly repentant, he would accept the responsibility for his crimes and the punishment that entails. He has a survival mentality, where he's going to do what he can to stay alive. I don't feel sorry for the guy, I feel sorry for his victims including the man he stood over and ridiculed as he was gurgling for air after being shot by a sawed-off shotgun. I would rather see the man break big rocks into little rocks for the rest of his life. However, Schwarzenegger isn't going to grant him clemency and rightfully so. -----signature----- "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give it to those who are not." --Thomas Jefferson
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Darth_Vaderous Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 12/9/05 9:23pm Subject: RE: 1,000 execution has been carried out
	Dark Lady Mara posted: Hanging is still a legal method of execution in the year 2005? Lovely. For the record, I'm opposed to all execution, no matter what the crime is. It doesn't save money, it doesn't have any significant effect on deterring people from committing future crimes, and it has no benefits for society that life imprisonment wouldn't have. I don't consider it the business of the state to kill people, and in any case, this eye-for-an-eye concept of justice is something humanity probably ought to try to put behind itself. Well, for one, eventually our prisons will be clogged up with a bunch of murderers and rapists and the like if we didn't kill anyone. And, murdering someone is plenty of justification for execution in my eyes. -----signature----- http://www.myspace.com/jakethigpen <---- Myspace page
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DeathStar1977 Registered: Jan '03	Date Posted: 12/10/05 11:42am Subject: RE: 1,000 execution has been carried out
	DM However, Schwarzenegger isn't going to grant him clemency and rightfully so. I concur with DM regarding 'Tookie', for the reasons he stated.
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Sabrajaguar Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 12/10/05 4:12pm Subject: RE: 1,000 execution has been carried out
	Don't believe in capital punishment. Most in New York state don't seem to like the Idea mutch either, especaily since Govoner Pataki reinstated it for a short and it was never implimented and then even ended. And Guess what. New York is the safest large city in the United States. So their goes the Death Penalty deters crime crap out the window. You want to end crime make the environement hostile to crime at the root, Crack down on petty crimes and petty criminals dont grow up into major criminals -----signature----- You are no warrior. Warriors win battles without murdering the weak.-Jacen Solo This Jeedai brenzlit slave spit upon your grandfather's bones.-Jacen Solo Don' thinkof it as murder, think of it as blessed release-Jacen Solo
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JediTre11 Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 12/11/05 8:11am Subject: RE: 1,000 execution has been carried out
	Darth Mischievous posted: He feels that being a 'rat' is worse than doing the right thing. How do you know this? Do you know him? Does he call you at home? Or are you supposing this is true as the only conceivable reason why he wouldn't "be a rat?" Maybe he doesn't think doing so will benefit gang members at all. The approach to alcoholism starts with the admission of a problem and only works if it is sincere. Helping the cops put them in jail isn't necessarily a step in the right direction, for gang members or alcoholics. Prison culture encourages gang membership in many ways, why would he contradict his own goals? 'Tookie' might be so intelligent that he knows this. Of course, we may never know because Arnold is busy making his movie "The Governator" and we all know what he does best in his movies. I can see the one liner now. "Let 'em fry." -----signature----- There follows an untranslatable play on words with the use of local idiomatic expressions. History B.A. If no God, there must be at least a pattern-making demiurge. - Anthony Burgess
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JediSmuggler Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 12/12/05 1:10pm Subject: RE: 1,000 execution has been carried out
	JediTre11 posted: Darth Mischievous posted: He feels that being a 'rat' is worse than doing the right thing. How do you know this? Do you know him? Does he call you at home? Or are you supposing this is true as the only conceivable reason why he wouldn't "be a rat?" Maybe he doesn't think doing so will benefit gang members at all. The approach to alcoholism starts with the admission of a problem and only works if it is sincere. Helping the cops put them in jail isn't necessarily a step in the right direction, for gang members or alcoholics. Prison culture encourages gang membership in many ways, why would he contradict his own goals? 'Tookie' might be so intelligent that he knows this. Of course, we may never know because Arnold is busy making his movie "The Governator" and we all know what he does best in his movies. I can see the one liner now. "Let 'em fry." Well, Tookie's going to get the needle tonight. Clemency had been denied. His victims will get justice. -----signature----- The military-industrial complex has kept America strong and safe.
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