| Author |
Topic:
The Two Koreas
|
Mr44
Registered:
May '02
|
Date Posted:
12/7/06 10:19am
Subject:
RE: The Two Koreas
- Date Edited:
12/7/06 10:29am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Mr44
|
Iran has been backed into a corner by what, precisely? By Hezbollah's win in Lebanon, by its mounting influence in Iraq, by a generalized unwillingness on the part of the rest of the world to impose meaningful sanctions. Maybe they're worried that the U.S. will boycott its Holocaust conference.
Because Iran was an emerging market, poised to enter the global commerse stream. That's been put on hold. The US is already integrated in that global market, this isn't going to shift anytime soon. The rest of the world disagrees over sanctions, but not on Iran's role, which means the next step is Iran's, not the US's.
What could that next step possibly be? Actually launch a missile at Israel to "teach the US a lesson?" Turn itself into a North Korea and "fortressize" itself, pouring everything into weapons?
Those aren't options, and there is no way for Iran to call anyone's bluff. Iran wanted into the nuclear club, and it's already found out that such a membership brings with it an entirely new set of rules.
Hezbollah's experience in Lebanon was the worse possible outcome for Iran, because it put the spotlight squarely on Iran itself, which Iran can't afford.
There is still an active reform movement in Iran, and that's how Iran is backed into a corner.
-----signature-----
Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability.
..............................................................
Peter Shoomaker
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
|
Date Posted:
12/7/06 11:17am
Subject:
RE: The Two Koreas
|
|
Like you say, it's truly intriguing how two people can look at the same fact pattern and reach such startlingly different conclusions.
-----signature-----
Malthusian Doomsday Quack
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
|
Date Posted:
2/13/07 7:08am
Subject:
RE: The Two Koreas
|
It is three years, eight bombs and one nuclear test too late. But better late than never.
-Gary Samore, on the North Korea accord.
-----signature-----
Malthusian Doomsday Quack
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
|
Date Posted:
2/13/07 1:26pm
Subject:
RE: The Two Koreas
|
Background
I think John Bolton has been amply demonstrating why neoconservatives will never really have a welcome place in reality; diplomacy is so often about compromise and they have no idea, in their playground "good vs evil" mindset, how to do that.
I'm really glad he's gone from the UN, and I'm glad neoconservatism has died so spectacularly and comically. Much like feeding a clown into a woodchipper, their demise has been hilarious and gory.  
The North Korean deal is a first step, it's not a victory for evil and a Dark Day for Good. The world just doesn't work that way.
Trading their capacity as a nuclear state for restored diplomatic relations with Washington and increased fuel supply has meant North Korea has conceded something, and received a concession. Wow, that sounds like a negotiated outcome! 
But in gaining diplomatic access to Washington, NK hasn't gained an audience with the President so much as the President has gained an audience in Pyongyang. That's not a bad thing in the slightest.
E_S
-----signature-----
In this truth he knew himself to be.
From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Mr44
Registered:
May '02
|
Date Posted:
2/13/07 1:34pm
Subject:
RE: The Two Koreas
|
How did John Bolton factor into your post?
Did he suddenly become the Prime Minister of Japan?
-----signature-----
Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability.
..............................................................
Peter Shoomaker
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
|
Date Posted:
2/13/07 1:43pm
Subject:
RE: The Two Koreas
|
Mr44 posted:
How did John Bolton factor into your post?
Did he suddenly become the Prime Minister of Japan?
The link was background to the deal; you didn't hear him bemoaning it?
Here
E_S
-----signature-----
In this truth he knew himself to be.
From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Mr44
Registered:
May '02
|
Date Posted:
2/13/07 1:46pm
Subject:
RE: The Two Koreas
|
Yeah, but Bolton does a lot of bemoaning...
-----signature-----
Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability.
..............................................................
Peter Shoomaker
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
|
Date Posted:
2/13/07 1:52pm
Subject:
RE: The Two Koreas
|
When have I not rubbed salt in the wounds of neoconservatism? 
ES
-----signature-----
In this truth he knew himself to be.
From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Mr44
Registered:
May '02
|
Date Posted:
2/13/07 1:55pm
Subject:
RE: The Two Koreas
|
But it represents his charm, kind of in the Walter Matheau/"Grumpy Old Men" genre.
I think it's also a requirement that comes with the Moustache.
-----signature-----
Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability.
..............................................................
Peter Shoomaker
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
|
Date Posted:
2/13/07 2:02pm
Subject:
RE: The Two Koreas
|
Mr44 posted:
But it represents his charm, kind of in the Walter Matheau/"Grumpy Old Men" genre.
I think it's also a requirement that comes with the Moustache.
Walter Matthau is pissed off the NK deal too?
Damn, his influence knows no bounds!
E_S
-----signature-----
In this truth he knew himself to be.
From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Mr44
Registered:
May '02
|
Date Posted:
2/13/07 2:03pm
Subject:
RE: The Two Koreas
|
|
Especially since it's coming from beyond the grave.....
-----signature-----
Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability.
..............................................................
Peter Shoomaker
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
|
Date Posted:
2/13/07 2:10pm
Subject:
RE: The Two Koreas
|
Mr44 posted:
Especially since it's coming from beyond the grave.....
Precisely! It's even possessed John Bolton! Oh noez!
E_S
-----signature-----
In this truth he knew himself to be.
From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
|
Date Posted:
2/13/07 2:30pm
Subject:
RE: The Two Koreas
- Date Edited:
2/13/07 2:30pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
|
|
John Bolton always has been an extreme parody of neoconservatism. His comments about the accord make a nice epilogue to the absurdity of the Bush administration in general, which I think we can now officially declare to be over.
-----signature-----
Malthusian Doomsday Quack
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Mr44
Registered:
May '02
|
Date Posted:
2/13/07 2:42pm
Subject:
RE: The Two Koreas
|
|
I would still disagree with such an extreme characterization. Bolton does raise some valid concerns, even if he does so in an overly direct manner. However, "directness" not not equate to killing the messenger.
-----signature-----
Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability.
..............................................................
Peter Shoomaker
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
|
Date Posted:
2/13/07 3:01pm
Subject:
RE: The Two Koreas
|
But the entire point of diplomacy is to bargain to a resolution whereby you have both given and gained; and Bolton seems completely oblivious to this fact. Instead, he assumes the morality of the US gives it an inherent rightness which other countries ought fear and respect in equal measures so long as they submit to US demands.
Having been involved in international diplomacy and negotiation with partners that have less political, economic and military clout than us I can tell you this just isn't so.
ES
-----signature-----
In this truth he knew himself to be.
From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
