| Author |
Topic:
Homosexuality: Marriage, State's Rights, and Court Decisions
|
zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
|
Date Posted:
1/24/06 5:24pm
Subject:
Homosexuality: Marriage, State's Rights, and Court Decisions
- Date Edited:
6/25 10:53am (4 edits total)
Edited By:
Mr44
|
Okay, i just got to thinking about this and i came to a conclusion. There has been a lot of debate about the "morality" of homosexuality, and for most people who deem it "sinful", "immoral", "unnatural", "disgusting" or whatever their reason is, a lot of it seems to be based on this central issue of "choice". Homophobics often claim that homosexuals should be hated because they choose to be that way, while defends counter that its biologically determined. This has been a central issue, perhaps THE issue, in determining its "wrongness", and the search for a "gay gene" is still a controversial subject matter.
But my question is this: why does it even matter? How does this change anything?
Now, this excludes christians who oppose it based on biblical condemnation of homosexuals. Whether or not you agree with that, at least they have some kind of justification, illogical or logical. But there are still a great many non-religious homophobics that i am still trying to understand their reasoning for--and in fact this even applies to some defends of homosexuality as well.
If a person "choses" to do something that someone else deems disgusting, why is this a big deal? It as if granting homosexuals the right to "choose" to have relations with members of the same sex is somehow forcing heterosexuals to as well. I find swiss cheese disgusting, but im not offended by those who enjoy it, and its not like they are forcing it upon me. However, hate over homosexuality for reasons of 'filth' or 'disgust' seems to be an exception in the form of discrimination.
And additionally, if someone deems it "immoral" or "unnatural", again why does this matter if it is not being forced upon you? I mean you could say the same thing about tattoos, and though they at one time were opposed as well for similar reasons, they have since been accepted (and even become trendy!). The only justification i can comprehend is those who base their judgement on religious grounds, because they really only oppose it because they have been instructed to by the fact that it is considered an affront to god (or whatever you want to interpret it as).
Anyway, my point is this: why is there such a big issue over the concept of "choice", except perhaps in religious matters? How does choosing or not choosing make it okay or not okay? Whether they chose to do it or not, they are still doing it, and so it really is irrelevant.
Also, although most people who seem to be embracing the "choice" aspect are homophobic on religious grounds, a great many people who are homophobic for personal and/or non-religious grounds also consider it "immoral" or "disgusting", etc. But what is their reasoning for this? Religious grounds i can understand, since their concepts of morality stem from the bible, but how can acts of love between consenting adults that affects no one but themselves be considered immoral, and again, if it simply disgust, why so much hate? After all, swiss cheese-eaters dont endure hate from those that find that disgusting (like me).
But again, to go back to the issue of choice: i see many defenders of homosexuality saying 'dont hate them, its not their choice', but to me this smacks of homophobia as well, this kind of 'victimisation' of homosexuals to absolve them of responsibility for their actions. A great number of other people have expressed 'disapproval' of the lifestyle but 'acceptance' because they believe homosexuals to be born as they are. But I think true acceptance doesnt even account for choice. It is as if describing mental patients, who stab to death their family members but cannot be hated because they have a mental disfunction and did not choose to be born that way.
So i ask you, if two women choose to make love, why is that an issue? If you oppose it on non-religious grounds and consider it 'immoral' or 'unnatural', what is your basis for determining such? And if you oppose it because it is 'disgusting', why the need for such hatred when other acts that may equally disgust you escape similar bigotry?
And while i think the majority will agree that homosexuality is indeed determined on a biological level, i can think of one instance where choice also enters the isse--bisexual friends of mine have literally said to me 'im sick of dating women, i think I'm going to date men for a while'(or vice-versa). So how does this fit in with everything?
Some have explained that most homophobics are men and thus hate the notion of accepting a "choosing" homosexual because of some subconscious fear that they may discover that they themselves are gay or because they find deliberately choosing sodomy so horrifying--and while this may be true in some cases, is it really this simple?
Anway, i would like to hear from actual homophobics on the issue (i know some may not like to be called that because they find it derogatory but i really dont know what else to refer to them as), and also those who accept gays because they believe it be biologically determined. Again, i ask both of you: what difference does choice make? For homophobics, if homosexuality was indeed NOT a choice would you be accepting and why, and for those who accept gays because of their biological making, if homosexuality was indeed A CHOICE would you be unaccepting and why?
-----signature-----
I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
darthOB1
Registered:
Mar '00
|
Date Posted:
1/24/06 5:27pm
Subject:
RE: Homosexuality: choice or not--what does it matter?
|
Do we really need another thread like this?
A better question would be why not bring this up in the other thread?
-----signature-----
“This most beautiful system [The Universe] could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.”
Isaac Newton
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
DARTH-SHREDDER
Registered:
May '05
|
Date Posted:
1/24/06 5:27pm
Subject:
RE: Homosexuality: choice or not--what does it matter?
|
There is already an official thread on homosexuality, so I think this is supposed to go there. 
-----signature-----
The bible is a pathway to many beliefs some consider to be ignorant. Only a sith deals in absolutes....or a conservative. I have a big problem with religion and rednecks.  Proud tree hugger. \m/ Rock on/ 
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
|
Date Posted:
1/24/06 5:33pm
Subject:
RE: Homosexuality: choice or not--what does it matter?
|
|
I think this particular aspect deserves its own topic.
-----signature-----
I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
VoijaRisa
Registered:
Oct '02
|
Date Posted:
1/24/06 5:54pm
Subject:
RE: Homosexuality: choice or not--what does it matter?
|
zombie posted:
I think this particular aspect deserves its own topic.
I'd agree. I think it covers much more than just homosexuality.
Personally, I find tattoos, certain piercings, and several other things disgusing. However, this is no reason for me to tell other people that they can't practice it as they wish.
-----signature-----
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
~Terry Pratchett
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
darthOB1
Registered:
Mar '00
|
Date Posted:
1/24/06 5:56pm
Subject:
RE: Homosexuality: choice or not--what does it matter?
|
|
We have discussed all of the things this thread is wanting to discuss, so why start another?
-----signature-----
“This most beautiful system [The Universe] could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.”
Isaac Newton
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
|
Date Posted:
1/24/06 6:17pm
Subject:
RE: Homosexuality: choice or not--what does it matter?
|
I think it is because the "choices" that we make are perceived to be an indicator of our general character as opposed to any biological disposition, particuarly within the context of societal norms.
IMO there are attempts to medicalise many conditions on this basis (for example) obesity - if we can somehow remove the element of choice in obesity then the obese person has a legitimate medical condition and are therefore not deemed to be deviating from societal "norms".
Yelling obscenities in the shopping centre would seem to de 'deviant' behaviour but a person with Tourettes Syndrome would not be deemed deviant because it is a 'medical' condition or a genetic predisposition.
The same can be said for homosexuality. Homosexuality has traditionally been seen as deviant behaviour and is/was actually a crime punishable by fines/imprisonment. But if it can be proven that homosexuality is biologically determined rather than a matter of choice, then following other examples of so called "deviance" then homosexuality would simply become a genetic trait like a predisposition towards balding and heart disease.
-----signature-----
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
|
Date Posted:
1/24/06 6:25pm
Subject:
RE: Homosexuality: choice or not--what does it matter?
|
|
This thread sucks. It labels anyone who is against SSM as homophobes. That's bad footing on which to start a thread.
-----signature-----
God bless George Bush John McCain 2008 Darth_wanderguard :"Maybe you're not quite as crazy as people say you are" 
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Quixotic-Sith
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
|
Date Posted:
1/24/06 6:28pm
Subject:
RE: Homosexuality: choice or not--what does it matter?
|
|
Well, we haven't even gotten into the reaction formation of the homophobes afraid to acknowledge their underlying homosexual attractions...
-----signature-----
Yeah, mind power, Swede; mind power.
You can never have too much precision in your soup.
Exit, pursued by a bear
More Rockets = More Science
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
|
Date Posted:
1/24/06 6:29pm
Subject:
RE: Homosexuality: choice or not--what does it matter?
- Date Edited:
1/24/06 6:42pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
J-Rod
|
Quixotic-Sith posted:
Well, we haven't even gotten into the reaction formation of the homophobes afraid to acknowledge their underlying homosexual attractions...
I dunno, I always thought you were pretty hot. But I love you for your mind...so's that's different.
-----signature-----
God bless George Bush John McCain 2008 Darth_wanderguard :"Maybe you're not quite as crazy as people say you are"
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
|
Date Posted:
1/24/06 6:34pm
Subject:
RE: Homosexuality: choice or not--what does it matter?
- Date Edited:
1/24/06 6:35pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
zombie
|
J-Rod posted:
This thread sucks. It labels anyone who is against SSM as homophobes. That's bad footing on which to start a thread.
what else would you call it? I know some who oppose homosexuality,etc. may find it derogatory but there really isnt a more appropriate term.
-----signature-----
I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
|
Date Posted:
1/24/06 6:40pm
Subject:
RE: Homosexuality: choice or not--what does it matter?
|
what else would you call it?
I dunno. Anti-gay? Pro-straight?
But to call each and every person who doesn't believe that every instance of homosexuality is derived from birth a "homophobe" is immediately judging their motives.
It would be like calling each and every person for SSM "anti-American" or claiming that they all wish to destroy society.
-----signature-----
God bless George Bush John McCain 2008 Darth_wanderguard :"Maybe you're not quite as crazy as people say you are"
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
|
Date Posted:
1/24/06 6:49pm
Subject:
RE: Homosexuality: choice or not--what does it matter?
- Date Edited:
1/24/06 6:53pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
zombie
|
J-Rod posted:
what else would you call it?
I dunno. Anti-gay? Pro-straight?
But to call each and every person who doesn't believe that every instance of homosexuality is derived from birth a "homophobe" is immediately judging their motives.
It would be like calling each and every person for SSM "anti-American" or claiming that they all wish to destroy society.
by that token then would you call a person who wanted to deny blacks the right to marriage racist? And if not, why? Pro-white and anti-black still makes you racist. If you are denying a person the right to marriage based on their sexual orientation, sorry, you are in fact homophobic. But this is really derailing the initial topic.
-----signature-----
I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
|
Date Posted:
1/24/06 6:50pm
Subject:
RE: Homosexuality: choice or not--what does it matter?
|
I think it's amazing the importance that is placed on a person's sexual preference.
I worked for many years in a law firm with a gay partner and predominatly gay clients. My boss dressed conservatively, was old fashioned - opened doors for ladies, watched old movies, thought the lesbian & gay mardi-gras antics (with floats and parades) was stupid and disliked loud music, parties and Abba. He was in a relationshiop with the same man for over 16 years.
If this guy ever got "married" - it would have no consequence for the rest of society - he was just a quiet chap who looked like any other 50 year old business professional.
Who cares? I don't understand all the fuss.
-----signature-----
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
DARTH-SHREDDER
Registered:
May '05
|
Date Posted:
1/24/06 6:57pm
Subject:
RE: Homosexuality: choice or not--what does it matter?
- Date Edited:
1/24/06 7:06pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DARTH-SHREDDER
|
J-Rod posted:
what else would you call it? It would be like calling each and every person for SSM "anti-American" or claiming that they all wish to destroy society.
That's a bad analogy. Nobody for SSM wants to destroy society or doesn't like America, while there are quite a few homophobes who are against SSM.
-----signature-----
The bible is a pathway to many beliefs some consider to be ignorant. Only a sith deals in absolutes....or a conservative. I have a big problem with religion and rednecks. Proud tree hugger. \m/ Rock on/
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
|
Date Posted:
1/24/06 7:04pm
Subject:
RE: Homosexuality: choice or not--what does it matter?
- Date Edited:
1/24/06 7:09pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
J-Rod
|
by that token then would you call a person who wanted to deny blacks the right to marriage racist? And if not, why?
Certainly I'd call them racist. But not Afrophobic.
If you are denying a person the right to marriage based on their sexual orientation, sorry, you are in fact homophobic.
1) This thread wasn't supposed to be about SSM. It was supposed to be about nature/nurture. Could it be possible that a person who supports SSM would also believe it was a lifestyle choice? If so would he still be "homophobic?"
2) "Homophobia" is the liberal medias attempt to make you believe that people who dissagree with homosexuality are motivated by something other than logic. Looks like it's working.
But this is really derailing the initial topic.
That's kinda what happens when you start a thread by insulting the opposition.
EDIT: That's a bad analogy. Nobody for SSM wants to destroy society or doesn't like America, while there are quite a few homophobes who are against SSM.
You would be wrong. There are certainly a very few who support SSM 'cause they want to weaken marriage.
-----signature-----
God bless George Bush John McCain 2008 Darth_wanderguard :"Maybe you're not quite as crazy as people say you are"
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
