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Author	Topic: What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand?
nancyallen Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 6/29 2:59pm Subject: RE: What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand?
	I don't agree with those parts, it may come as a surprise, but I certainly agree with the notion that atheists will not concede they are wrong no matter what. -----signature----- Even as I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, for God is with me.
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Darth Geist Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 6/29 3:01pm Subject: RE: What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand? - Date Edited: 6/29 3:39pm (4 edits total) Edited By: Darth Geist
	I don't think any particular religion, or lack thereof, has a monopoly on stubbornness, if that's what you're suggesting. But if you're suggesting instead that an atheist somehow knows he's wrong, but won't admit it, that's completely off. That was written by one guy, based on what may or may not have been his own experience, and if you read what else he wrote on that site, it's obvious he's not quite right in the head. Pardon me for saying so, nancy, but the point you aren't completely clear on is that there's no worldwide atheist union or anything similar. Some atheists hang out together, some write books, but that's about as far as it goes. Other than lack of belief in God, there's not much similarity from one atheist to the next — just like one Christian might believe that God wants everyone to live in peace and love, and another, like the one you linked to, might believe that God wants us to kill people. Me, if you're curious? I was raised Presbyterian, then Methodist. Heard all the stories, sang all the songs, sat down and read the Bible now and again. But the more I thought about it, the more questions I had that people couldn't really answer. The more those questions piled up, and the more I looked at how modern Christianity came to be (and I'm not talking about the Inquisitions and Crusades, but the change from one set of beliefs to another and another), the less sense Christianity made to me. At that point, you've pretty much got four ways to go: 1. Make yourself stop thinking about it, and just believe. 2. Decide that it all makes sense, even if you don't understand it, because God is above your comprehension, and keep believing that way. 3. Keep studying, and see if it clicks eventually. 4. Find something else to believe in. So, for most of my adult life, I've been alternating between 3 and 4. Christianity, and religion in general, is amazing to study, whether you believe in it or not. Did you know, for example, that the concept of the Rapture didn't become a part of Christian teachings until 1830, or that Jews don't believe in Satan the same way? (In Judaism, Satan isn't God's enemy; more like God's prosecuting attorney. He's a servant of God, with the dirty job of testing humans to see if they pass. Hence, the book of Job. Technically, he's not even the snake in the Garden; as written, the snake is just a snake, until Milton wrote Paradise Lost, retconned the snake into being Satan, and everyone pretty much went along with it.) Threads like this one are good for all of us. You keep reading, keep learning, and see where it takes you. -----signature----- Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Lord_Vivec Registered: Apr '06	Date Posted: 6/29 5:57pm Subject: RE: What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand?
	LostOnHoth posted: Lord_Vivec - you are the sort of Christian I can respect. The main problem is that it attributes a motive to atheists that neither are true nor are even fair to make. I've always believed one arrives to Christianity not through the brain but through the heart. This implies that said individual has gone through experiences that brought him/her to God. Some people simply haven't arrived to God. Their life experiences haven't brought them there. Very insightful. Well said. Thank you. -----signature----- Lord Sithis, Dark Lord of Entropy Senator of the Disciples of Lady Lumiya and Lord Shadowspawn Avatar: Of Fire and Lightning: http://boards.theforce.net/non_star_wars_fan_fiction/b10808/28930140/p1/?5 Obama/Biden '08
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nancyallen Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 6/29 6:11pm Subject: RE: What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand?
	Darth Geist posted: Pardon me for saying so, nancy, but the point you aren't completely clear on is that there's no worldwide atheist union or anything similar. Would it be fair to say that most atheists share many similarities? -----signature----- Even as I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, for God is with me.
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Quixotic-Sith Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/29 6:27pm Subject: RE: What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand?
	nancyallen posted: Darth Geist posted: Pardon me for saying so, nancy, but the point you aren't completely clear on is that there's no worldwide atheist union or anything similar. Would it be fair to say that most atheists share many similarities? No, not really. The only commonality is either disbelief or non-belief in a transcendent deity or deities. There aren't generalizable personality traits or archetypes. -----signature----- Yeah, mind power, Swede; mind power. You can never have too much precision in your soup. Exit, pursued by a bear More Rockets = More Science
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DarthKomar Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 6/29 7:53pm Subject: RE: What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand?
	LostOnHoth posted: Lord_Vivec - you are the sort of Christian I can respect. The main problem is that it attributes a motive to atheists that neither are true nor are even fair to make. I've always believed one arrives to Christianity not through the brain but through the heart. This implies that said individual has gone through experiences that brought him/her to God. Some people simply haven't arrived to God. Their life experiences haven't brought them there. Very insightful. Well said. Yes, very well said. -----signature----- Lightsabre Blender tutorial. .rar http://www.mediafire.com/?jwcsln2ybek .zip http://www.mediafire.com/?hmjns24w1d2 Discussion Thread http://boards.theforce.net/fan_films/b10015/28508544/p1/?22
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nancyallen Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 6/29 9:27pm Subject: RE: What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand?
	Quixotic-Sith posted: No, not really. The only commonality is either disbelief or non-belief in a transcendent deity or deities. There aren't generalizable personality traits or archetypes. We could find common personality traits in many atheists though, perhaps. -----signature----- Even as I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, for God is with me.
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Quixotic-Sith Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/29 9:53pm Subject: RE: What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand?
	nancyallen posted: Quixotic-Sith posted: No, not really. The only commonality is either disbelief or non-belief in a transcendent deity or deities. There aren't generalizable personality traits or archetypes. We could find common personality traits in many atheists though, perhaps. Nope. That's just an assumption, and you have no real basis for it. The plural of personal anecdote isn't data. -----signature----- Yeah, mind power, Swede; mind power. You can never have too much precision in your soup. Exit, pursued by a bear More Rockets = More Science
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Lord_Vivec Registered: Apr '06	Date Posted: 6/29 9:53pm Subject: RE: What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand?
	While I agree that there is no worldwide atheist union (I'm reminded of that South Park episode), one has to admit that Richard Dawkins and company have gained quite a following. -----signature----- Lord Sithis, Dark Lord of Entropy Senator of the Disciples of Lady Lumiya and Lord Shadowspawn Avatar: Of Fire and Lightning: http://boards.theforce.net/non_star_wars_fan_fiction/b10808/28930140/p1/?5 Obama/Biden '08
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Darth Geist Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 6/29 10:45pm Subject: RE: What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand? - Date Edited: 6/29 10:55pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Darth Geist
	Lord_Vivec posted: While I agree that there is no worldwide atheist union (I'm reminded of that South Park episode), one has to admit that Richard Dawkins and company have gained quite a following. Well, so have Jon Stewart and Steven Colbert, but not every Colbert viewer is a faux-Republican who spends every weekend killing bears. Back to Nancy: Homosexual Genocide Man, who you linked to above, may tell you that atheists have some common traits or motivations, but...he's Homosexual Genocide Man. Don't let him tell you how things are. The point you're missing here is that the label "atheist" applies to anyone who hasn't been sold on any one particular God. There's no big, cohesive group involved, and people lose (or never find) faith in God(s) for all sorts of reasons. It comes down to the individual. -----signature----- Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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SWBob Registered: Jun '03	Date Posted: 6/29 11:04pm Subject: RE: What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand?
	nancyallen posted: Quixotic-Sith posted: No, not really. The only commonality is either disbelief or non-belief in a transcendent deity or deities. There aren't generalizable personality traits or archetypes. We could find common personality traits in many atheists though, perhaps. Sure, and you can probaly find some common personality traits in brunettes. Just as you can find some common personality traits in people who like to where brown clothes. Is it signifigant in any way? No. And Geist, I agree. A lot of people get labeled athiest when they arent really athiest. Like I have a couple friend believe that something started the universe they arent sure what it is but they dont feel it has had any impact on the formation and ruling of life since that inital jump-start. While they would probably technically fall under agnostic, they tend to label themselves as athiest just because it is easier. -----signature----- "There will be pages. Lots and lots of pages. Most of them will have letters on them, and a vast majority of those letters will be in the Roman alphabet" -Aaron Allston Minister of Internal Affairs and CoW Senator Sith Governer of the NJO Fan Club
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Lowbacca_1977 Title: Senate Moderator Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 6/29 11:23pm Subject: RE: What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand?
	I'd like to make a general reminder that this thread is intended to be focusing on the understanding of Christianity. This isn't the place for a second atheism discussion.
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Quixotic-Sith Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/29 11:57pm Subject: RE: What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand?
	Lowbacca_1977 posted: I'd like to make a general reminder that this thread is intended to be focusing on the understanding of Christianity. This isn't the place for a second atheism discussion. Happy to do so; just wanted to make sure that what is being suggested in the other thread isn't forgotten here. On the topic of Christianity (and, for that matter, Islam), there is a strong sense of community, which seems to be historically paradoxical. On the one hand, it has served as a source of identity and unity within the people of faith. On the other hand, it has been linked with political philosophies that many people in individualistic societies consider to be anathema. As a for instance, liberation theology is a (personally) compelling branch of Christian thought, but some have suggested that its parallels with socialism make it politically unappealing. If anyone is interested in discussing this (and finds him/herself torn between religious and political ideology), which should win out at the end of the day? -----signature----- Yeah, mind power, Swede; mind power. You can never have too much precision in your soup. Exit, pursued by a bear More Rockets = More Science
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SWBob Registered: Jun '03	Date Posted: 6/30 1:44am Subject: RE: What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand?
	Lowbacca_1977 posted: I'd like to make a general reminder that this thread is intended to be focusing on the understanding of Christianity. This isn't the place for a second atheism discussion. Wont happen again. just thought I'd pipe in on that sense the conversation headed in that direction. Consider it dropped. -----signature----- "There will be pages. Lots and lots of pages. Most of them will have letters on them, and a vast majority of those letters will be in the Roman alphabet" -Aaron Allston Minister of Internal Affairs and CoW Senator Sith Governer of the NJO Fan Club
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Darth-Ghost Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 6/30 1:58am Subject: RE: What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand? - Date Edited: 6/30 2:11am (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth-Ghost
	Liberation theology doesn't seem right with me. I remember seeing some quote someone from one of its most famous thinkers that if God does not hate their oppressors then God isn't worth being loved for taking "their side." To me, having such a view is extremely selfish and goes against some of the core of Christianity. I've been thinking and trying to clarify my beliefs lately, especially on how central faith, hope and love are to Christianity. For a recap, here's one of my favorite, and also one of the most well-know, Bible passages: 1 Corinthians 13 (New Internation Version) posted: 1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. I've tried to summarize the fundamental message of Christ into those three virtues: faith, hope, and love. It's hard to come up with good definitions of them, though, and the closest I've come up with are: Faith is confidence without proof, Hope is trust without certainty, Love is devotion without attachment. All our virtues, from love, hope, and faith to moderation, wisdom, courage, and justice, to humility, patience, kindness, diligence, charity, and chastity to every other virtue you can think of really do all mesh together into one single Virtue if you think long and hard enough about it, it seems. All different perspectives of the same truth that is God. Love: always choose and act for love, not possessively but for each thing’s own value to God; and to love God with all one’s strength, mind, heart, and soul; and love our neighbor including our enemy as we love ourselves, loving each other enough to lay down our lives for the welfare of another; bravely, serenely, and patiently enduring our suffering for love of God; for God so loved us all that his only son was asked to suffer and die, so whoever believes in his life as the incarnation of God and his story of perfect loving self-sacrifice will not perish but have an eternal life and perfect relationship with God, so we should return the same love to God that he gave us Hope: trust in God for the best for all you love; despite all suffering, death, change, injustice, contrary reasoning, contrary thoughts, contrary feelings, contrary beliefs, and uncertainty; surrendering our power to the entropy and will of God, and his will is unconditional love; even though God has given us the power of free will (and the reasons, including despair, apathy, anger, selfish pleasure-seeking, pride, selfishness and possessiveness through the fallen and imperfect state of this universe, and our and loved ones’ painful living and dying in it) to reject God and his love, it is only so we may have true choice and the potential for true love Faith: whatever happens or whatever the ultimate fates of things are, it was chosen by God, and since all things belong to God then their paths and fates were his to determine for us; so we should accept and rejoice in whatever will happen, it will all turn out alright in the end, even if our current view of alright is different than what happens it's still alright because God is right and he chose it; for God is love, all who love do live in God, as does God live in those who love; the Holy Spirit was sent to live in us and help guide us toward God and away from evil; when we fail to love perfectly we need only repent and ask God for forgiveness while truly not wanting to fail again; and through faith, hope and love in his son Jesus Christ we are forgiven Mission of Love: Devotion to improving the welfare of all others to maximum, without use of force or threat, for God’s glory alone. Welfare: • Physical- health, security • Mental- health, education • Emotional- happiness, liberty • Social- justice, love • Spiritual- justice, morality Welfare for Humanity, improving the human condition, while preserving and fulfilling human nature Welfare for the Environment and Wildlife, preserving it in greatest condition while fulfilling its potential Does this seem close, or was I completely off when I was writing that earlier today? Also, that there really is no chaos (sometimes called entropy). What we call chaos or entropy really just means we have a lack of understanding (and/or) a lack of control. It's in God's control, and only he fully understands. We just fear it, calling it chaos because we mistakenly think it's a lack of order, just because we can't control it or understand its order. We call information or energy we can't control anymore entropy, saying it's been "wasted," but that really is a selfish way of viewing the ways of the universe. Really, it just means it goes completely into God's hands and away from our own, so why fear it? It's because we value Power, and define Power as accomplishing our will with least amount of energy possible in the least amount of time possible, with the least entropy (wasted energy and time) possible. Only a change in focus and perspecitve is needed. One more thing to chew on, Christianity has a lot of rules and commandments, which can all be simplified down to how to serve that single Virtue, and the closest named virtue to it is best summarized in the word Love in my opinion. But each commandment to keep seem to focus on a different perspective or value on how to serve Love. Here's a list of some commandments and what I seem to get the main values coming from each is: Values learned from each "commandment" (1) love God LOVE (2) love neighbor as yourself EQUALITY, EMPATHY (3) do not murder LIFE (4) do not commit adultery MARRIAGE, PROMISE (5) do not steal PROPERTY, RESPECT (6) do not offer false testimony TRUTH (7) honor mother and father FAMILY, REVERENCE, HONOR (8) do not covet ACCEPTANCE (9) give possessions to the poor and leave everything behind to follow Jesus GENEROSITY, SUBMISSION (10) repent of sins and ask for forgiveness FORGIVENESS, REMORSE, MERCY, NONJUDGMENTAL ATTITUDE Does any of this seem right, or am I suffering from lack of sleep?
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