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Topic:
People Who Are Screwing Up America: Scott Harshbarger/Myron Magnet/Peter Singer/Marvin Olasky
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Rogue1-and-a-half
Title: Manager: Amphitheatre
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
8/25/06 9:41am
Subject:
People Who Are Screwing Up America: Scott Harshbarger/Myron Magnet/Peter Singer/Marvin Olasky
- Date Edited:
8/21/07 9:16pm (41 edits total)
Edited By:
Rogue1-and-a-half
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Last year, Bernie Goldberg, most famous for his *ahem* rather biased book on the media, aptly titled Bias, published a book in which he made his picks for 100 people who are, well, not to put to fine a point on it, screwing up America.
Non-Americans, take heart, you may participate as well. 
Goldberg is hardly unbiased and his choices run a gamut from inflammatory to dead on to inflammatory and dead on. So, let's talk about these people and, more that just the people, the heart of Goldberg's criticism of them. We can talk about Goldberg too, I think; he wrote the book after all, and he encourages discussion.
Without further ado:
100. Ricky & Kathy Hilton
The People:
Paris Hilton's parents. That says it all.
Pertinent Quote:
If they gave Nobel prizes for the mom and dad who raised the most vapid, empty-headed, inane, hollow, vain, tasteless, self-centered, useless twerp in the entire country - maybe in the entire world - Ricky and Kathy Hilton would be on their way to Stockholm . . .
The Issue:
At issue here is the fact that, like most of us, Goldberg is deeply irritated with Paris Hilton, but he's managed to come to the conclusion that it isn't really her fault. She's effectively been nurtured and raised to be exactly what she is: a fool.
At heart here, I think, is a problem with our current system of inheiritance. I think we can all agree that had Paris Hilton ever had to work a day in her life (and I mean, really work), she'd be a better person right now.
I think Goldberg's pretty on target here; deliver us from rich fools. There was a generation that became rich because they knew how to work and they knew how to make something of themselves. And then there's a generation that became rich by a pure happenstance of birth and, let's face it, most people tend to shallow already. What's going to happen when you're handed several million dollars upon your birth and given everything you want?
As it says in Ecclesiastes, and I love pointing this scripture out because it's one of those issues most people don't think the Bible addresses:
Yea, I hated all my labour which I had taken under the sun: because I should leave it unto the man that shall be after me. And who knoweth whether he shall be a wise man or a fool? Yet shall he have rule over all my labour . . . This is also vanity.
So, here we have the dilemma: a lot of people manage to accumulate money because they're intelligent, determined, hard workers, talented, whatever . . . but then they leave it to the person who comes after them, who might very well be the biggest fool ever born. This is vanity, the preacher says. No kidding. Perhaps we need a revamp in the way multi-million dollar inheritances are handled.
Crichton talks about this in Jurassic Park in terms of scientific powers; there's no discipline when you're handed something. To paraphrase Crichton, the reason we trust a black belt to have a black belt is because they have learned not only the skill, but also discipline. Hand someone a gun and they have power, but since they didn't have to work to get it, there's no discipline. Same holds true for financial power; I don't particularly trust Paris Hilton to always do the best things with her money, you get me?
But equally, this is just a slam on the modern parenting style; even parents who aren't multi-millionaires give their kids everything they want, never teach them how to work or of the value of an education. And that is definitely shameful.
Well, Rick and Kathy . . . they're just one example. But the basic parenting style, one that lets kids coast and not learn to think, work or do anything for themselves . . . yes, that is definitely screwing up America.
Discuss.
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Fire_Ice_Death
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
8/25/06 9:55am
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Hosted Discussion (Disc. Rick & Kathy Hilton)
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If we're going to have this thread we better have the other list of 101 people.
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Humor is my shield. Sarcasm my sword.
The Changing Face of America: What can brown do for you?
Gamertag: FIDo Almighty
Remember: Frank Miller hates you.
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Jedi Merkurian
Title: Games: RPG d20 GM
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
8/25/06 10:47am
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Hosted Discussion (Disc. Rick & Kathy Hilton)
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IIRC, this particular book had a particularly right-wing slant...  Will we be discussing many conservatives that are "screwing up America?"
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Rogue1-and-a-half
Title: Manager: Amphitheatre
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
8/25/06 11:01am
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Hosted Discussion (Disc. Rick & Kathy Hilton)
- Date Edited:
8/25/06 11:16am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Rogue1-and-a-half
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Jedi Merkurian posted:
IIRC, this particular book had a particularly right-wing slant... Will we be discussing many conservatives that are "screwing up America?"
Like Goldberg himself, you mean?
Part of the reason I thought it would be fun is because I think many of his choices are completely off the wall. Which I think I said up there, but maybe not clearly enough. I just thought it would be fun; I'm no fan of Goldberg. His Bias was pretty, well, specious, in my opinion.
I've always maintained that the best lists for discussions are the ones we don't particularly agree with. And I think Huberman's list is a reaction to Goldberg's, isn't it? In which case it seemed to make sense to me to go through Goldberg's first and then, if this thread works and people enjoy it, take a look at Huberman's. If you want to start a second thread using Huberman's book and work through it in tandem, that works too, but I thought it would be better to do them in sequence.
I have some extremely liberal ideas and some extremely conservative ones; I think that particularly qualifies me to critique both lists from a moderate perspective.
YMMV (I just found out what this meant last week . . . I'm using it like crazy now).
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Without having ever felt sorry for itself.
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Jedi Merkurian
Title: Games: RPG d20 GM
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
8/25/06 12:43pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Hosted Discussion (Disc. Rick & Kathy Hilton)
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Ah  Misunderstood your intentions  I thought this was going to be a "librulz = teh st00pid!1!11!!1!" thread.
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
8/25/06 3:37pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Hosted Discussion (Disc. Rick & Kathy Hilton)
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Is Paris really a fool though?
She has at least 2 television shows..
She has some sort of CD out now..
She somehow continues to get people after people to throw money after her without doing much of anything..
As the immotral quote says, who is the bigger fool... The Fool herself or the people who follow her?
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Neo-Paladin
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
8/25/06 4:02pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Hosted Discussion (Disc. Rick & Kathy Hilton)
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Seems like a waste of a slot to me. Ms.Hilton is a celebrity and they matter only as much as you let them matter. Already the amount I care is nearly depleated.
Is she a fool? The best way to answer that question is to put it in role playing game terms. She has the same starting points as everyone else, she just put lots of them in a few abilities and just about zeroed the rest out.
wow, the internet is great. I can say stuff like that with no fear of reprisal.
Are the Hilton's emblematic of parents today? I'm not convinced of that either. I'm convinced that more parents should more consistently discipline their children, but the Hilton family can hardly be called emblematic of any American family.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
8/25/06 4:17pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Hosted Discussion (Disc. Rick & Kathy Hilton)
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Just because there are many other fools following her doesn't make her any less of one either, neccessarily.
Though, I'll add, I can only comment based on what's said in here.... I've heard the name in conjunction with stuff, but I'm really not at all familiar with her. She's not done anything thats led to me paying any attention to her.
As for the book itself, I think the attacks of "OMG BIAS" is a bit unrealistic. Its an opinion piece. He's honest about that. His intro and the back of the book both state that its who HE considers to be screwing up America. To quote:
Bernard Goldberg's introduction posted:
First, I didn't take a poll. Forgive me for stating the obvious, but this is my list. There won't be two people in the whole country who agree with every name in the book. "Why in the world did you put him on it?" someone is going to yell at me. "How come you left her off the list?" Because the people on it are the ones I think are screwing things up.
Of course it'll reflect his opinion, but he's not acting as though this is the official list that can't be written any other way, just that its from his perspective. If he was trying to claim that we were dealing purely with fact, or if he'd tried to deny having political leanigns play a part, then I'd agree that the bias charges would be valid, but the whole book is opinion.
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Rogue1-and-a-half
Title: Manager: Amphitheatre
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
8/25/06 4:35pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Hosted Discussion (Disc. Rick & Kathy Hilton)
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Jedi Merkurian posted:
Ah Misunderstood your intentions I thought this was going to be a "librulz = teh st00pid!1!11!!1!" thread.
I see how it could have given that impression. But no, I'm far from agreeing with eveything Goldberg says; I doubt I agree with even half of it.
But . . . you have made me think about things a little more and I think I'll alternate the two books, rather than go through one and then the other, meaning that our next pick will be from the Huberman book . . . it may take a few days; I've already sent that one back to the library, so I need to get it again.
But I think that will give us a broader base of discussion as well as the ability to do more of a compare and contrast; I've always said, if you take the two sides and put them together, you're close to truth, so maybe this will work better.
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Without having ever felt sorry for itself.
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Fire_Ice_Death
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
8/25/06 5:06pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Hosted Discussion (Disc. Rick & Kathy Hilton)
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Number 101 on the other list is: The obnoxiously loud and constant cell phone user.
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Humor is my shield. Sarcasm my sword.
The Changing Face of America: What can brown do for you?
Gamertag: FIDo Almighty
Remember: Frank Miller hates you.
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Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa
Registered:
Jan '02
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Date Posted:
8/25/06 5:14pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Hosted Discussion (Disc. Rick & Kathy Hilton)
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Mr44 posted:
Is Paris really a fool though?
She has at least 2 television shows..
She has some sort of CD out now..
She somehow continues to get people after people to throw money after her without doing much of anything..
As the immotral quote says, who is the bigger fool... The Fool herself or the people who follow her?
There's the thing about Hollywood these days. People think that if you have a long list of "accomplishments", you're of some kind of value to the world as we know it.
The fact is that Paris, Rick, and Kathy are about as dumb as it gets. The fact tha just because she follows the fool, doesen't make her any less of one.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
8/26/06 10:42am
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Hosted Discussion (Disc. Rick & Kathy Hilton)
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Paris is a brand without portfolio. Sort of "Hello Kitty," only built almost entirely on the foundation of an amateur pornographic video. The fact that she was a reluctant porn star made the brand even more valuable for some reason. She has turned herself into an entrepreneurial phenomenon.
Things to remember: although she is described as a fabulously wealthy heiress, her parents may not actually be all that rich on the American scale of wealth. The amount she stands to inherit is almost certainly routinely exaggerated - in part because it helps feed the brand image - in the same way that Donald Trump overstates his own wealth by perhaps a factor of ten.
By the time Paris obtains whatever she stands to inherit, she will have earned far more on her own brand than she'll get through generational transfer of wealth. The bottom line: she needs the income to retain her image as a top shelf heiress.
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Jedi Merkurian
Title: Games: RPG d20 GM
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May '00
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Date Posted:
8/27/06 10:37am
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Hosted Discussion (Disc. Rick & Kathy Hilton)
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The thing that irks me about Paris is that in the beginning, she was famous for being famous. Out of the clear blue, the name "Paris Hilton" was on eveybody's lips...but why?
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Rogue_Follower
Title: Manager: Literature
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
8/27/06 11:56am
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Hosted Discussion (Disc. Rick & Kathy Hilton)
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The Hiltons are just...   
Watching any of Paris' shows has the unfortunate side-effect of lowering one's IQ by 5%. Whatever happened to the time when celebrity, good looks, and intelligence weren't mutually exclusive?
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
8/27/06 3:32pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Hosted Discussion (Disc. Rick & Kathy Hilton)
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I think perhaps the easiest definition of Paris is "easy money", but that aside, the whole "celebutante" label applies. They're famous for being starlets (rhymes with?) and that's about it.
Alarmingly, Paris' album has been getting very positive reviews. 
E_S
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JediMasterNicolas
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
8/27/06 6:30pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Hosted Discussion (Disc. Rick & Kathy Hilton)
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Positive reviews?
So thats why those four menacing looking fellows were galloping at me out of the sky. 
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