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Topic:
People Who Are Screwing Up America: Scott Harshbarger/Myron Magnet/Peter Singer/Marvin Olasky
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
3/23/07 10:04pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Katherine Hanson/Dr. Laura/Randall Robinson/SUV Buyers
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
driving hazzard
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-HAAAWWWWWWWW!!!
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
3/24/07 12:56am
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Katherine Hanson/Dr. Laura/Randall Robinson/SUV Buyers
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I had a feeling being too lazy to fix that typo would come back on me like that
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Eleventh_Guard
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
3/24/07 4:33pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Katherine Hanson/Dr. Laura/Randall Robinson/SUV Buyers
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Sometimes Dr. Laura is very wrong, and sometimes she can get to the core of the matter and tell it like it is without bullcrap. It just depends. She has all the subtlety of a bulldozer. This is sometimes needed and appropriate. Other times, it makes her look, at best, insensitive and rude.
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Rogue1-and-a-half
Title: Manager: Amphitheatre
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
3/30/07 8:53pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: Katherine Hanson/Dr. Laura/Randall Robinson/SUV Buyers
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Goldberg's 66:
David Duke
White nationalist who argues in favor of racial segregation; virulently denies the Holocaust and has served as a Grand Wizard of the KKK.
Huberman's 66:
Tim LaHaye & Jerry Jenkins
Conservative Christian authors of the best-selling Left Behind series of novels which spawned comics, spin offs, video games and films. Huberman criticizes them for spreading hate, the, as he puts it, flip side of Al-Qaida, gleefully recounting the torments visited on non-Christians after the Rapture of the Church.
Goldberg's 65:
Oliver Stone
Award winning film director; Goldberg takes him to task for playing fast and loose with the facts in films like Nixon and JFK. He also calls him a liberal mouthpiece.
Huberman's 65:
Mel Gibson
Huberman calls The Passion of the Christ a terrible, hate mongering film, anti-Semitic and barbaric. And this is before the DUI incident.
My thoughts:
Duke, no one in their right mind can argue with. He's representative of a particularly cringe inducingly terrible kind of person. He's incredibly off-balance and there is no excuse for the kind of hate he spreads.
As for Oliver Stone, I disagree strongly. JFK and Nixon were both masterworks, not factual but brilliant just the same. The ol' debate rears its head again; but a movie doesn't have to be a documentary unless it is a documentary. And Stone's films succeed well with their emotional impact; that's all I need. I could care less about factual inaccuracies. And Platoon was brilliant, thanks.
LaHaye and Jenkins I find rather distasteful for another reason than Huberman does; I think the book series is poorly written (at least the ones I read, the first five) and the constant spin-offs smack of utter money grubbing. The series was originally slated at seven books; after they started selling, they upped to about fourteen and that's not counting the prequels, sequels, spin-offs, comic versions, films, etc. I suppose one could argue that they're spreading hate, but then one could argue that many authors are spreading some kind of hate. I think the greater sin here (no pun intended) is the fact that these books are utter potboilers. They aren't, frankly, decent enough to get offended over.
As for Mel Gibson, I haven't seen Passion yet, but I still give the guy a pass. The man's a great actor and I can forgive a misstep, even one as egregious as his drunken rant on the freeway. And, say what you like, he is, at least, an original and I'd rather seen an original making movies than anoher hackneyed clone.
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
3/31/07 4:35am
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: David Duke/Tim LaHaye/Jerry Jenkins/Oliver Stone/Mel Gi
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For Christmas I think my Grandma gave me a $1 DVD in a stocking that I think was based off the Left Behind books, and I also used to download a lot of game demos and I got the one where you kill the evil people. I couldn't stand more than 15 minutes of each. It didn't have anything to do with the fact they have the second coming of Christ completely screwed up, but the fact they are crap.
I think hip hop and rap are far more hateful and violent, but they at least are cool.
I think Mr. Hill put it best when he said: "Can't you see you're not making Christianity better, you're just making rock and roll worse?"
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Master_SweetPea
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
4/2/07 10:10am
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: David Duke/Tim LaHaye/Jerry Jenkins/Oliver Stone/Mel Gi
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ahh the SUV debate, can't we start an entire thread about that, wait..haven't we already done that!?
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
4/2/07 11:49am
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: David Duke/Tim LaHaye/Jerry Jenkins/Oliver Stone/Mel Gi
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David Duke
- this one is a no brainer, its freaking David Duke
Tim LaHaye & Jerry Jenkins
The description of them sounds likes its a bit strong, esp as likening someone to Al-Queda doesn't apply unless they're activly killing people, imo
Oliver Stone
Well, I've only seen one of Stone's movies, World Trade Center... absed on that one, I've nothing to take issue with him over.
Mel Gibson
I don't get the big issue with Passion, personally. Both from those that made a big deal in seeing it and those that got upset about it. Related though, about a week ago, my university had Mel Gibson there (the film department had him come) and there was a bit of a situation that erupted because some people came that were upset about Apocolypto. particularly messy as from what I've read, the film students there were annoyed that someone was trying to politicise what was otherwise going to be a Q&A about film making.
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/2/07 12:10pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: David Duke/Tim LaHaye/Jerry Jenkins/Oliver Stone/Mel Gi
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
David Duke
- this one is a no brainer, its freaking David Duke
I think David Duke serves a useful function as an ******* detector. If he's polling at 10%, then you can tell that 10% of the people surveyed are ********.
Lowbacca_1977 posted:
Tim LaHaye & Jerry Jenkins
The description of them sounds likes its a bit strong, esp as likening someone to Al-Queda doesn't apply unless they're activly killing people, imo
Well, OBL doesn't really do a whole lot of killing himself. He's more the ideologue who recruits people to his cause with incendiary rhetoric about an apocalyptic conflict between Good and Evil, and he's also the one who handles a lot of the organizational work, all of which motivates other people to do the killing and makes it possible on a practical level.
As huge and influential backers of the Bush administration, LaHaye's Council for National Policy (CNP) shares responsibility for more murders than al-Qaeda has ever accomplished, and the rhetoric of the Left Behind books is easily as poisonous as anything OBL has ever put out. I don't think the comparison's off base at all.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
4/2/07 12:34pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: David Duke/Tim LaHaye/Jerry Jenkins/Oliver Stone/Mel Gi
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Well, I think you can always get people to agree to something in a poll question even if they don't know what they're agreeing to.
Dizfactor, now, if you've a link to how they created an organisation that recruits people into a network that murders innocent people via religious extremeism as Al-Queda does, I'd be happy to read said link.
Now, that doesn't mean if the tone of it is as described, that its not hateful and disgusting, but using Al-Queda is specifically meant to tie it to terrorism.
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/2/07 1:04pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: David Duke/Tim LaHaye/Jerry Jenkins/Oliver Stone/Mel Gi
- Date Edited:
4/2/07 1:04pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
dizfactor
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
Dizfactor, now, if you've a link to how they created an organisation that recruits people into a network that murders innocent people via religious extremeism as Al-Queda does, I'd be happy to read said link.
Here you go
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
4/2/07 1:53pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: David Duke/Tim LaHaye/Jerry Jenkins/Oliver Stone/Mel Gi
- Date Edited:
4/2/07 1:59pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lowbacca_1977
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diz,
1. That link does not mention EITHER Tim Lahaye or Jerry Jenkins
2. The book seems to be discussing an ideology, not acts in line with the acts of Al-Queda
3. You basically gave me a link to say "go spend money on this to see how I'm right"
I'll make it clearer to get a link that actually addresses the matter.
The claim was that Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins are basically Al-Queda-like. Al-Queda uses fundamentalist religion to recruit people into a terrorist network that routinely kills innocent civilians intentionally.
Now, for the comparison to hold, give me a link that will itself address how Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins are heading a Christian organisation that has, as one of its basic acts, the routine murders of innocent civilians as an intentional act.
Links about Christian groups they're not affiliated with will miss that point that they have to be involved. Links only about how they spread hate will miss the point that they have to be involved in murdering innocent civlians. Generally links about the military will miss the point that it has to be the intentional killing of innocent civilians and accidental killing is not the same thing as intentional, and while there issues about it worth discussing, civilian militants are also nto the same as innocent civilians not engaged in combat.
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JMJacenSolo
Registered:
May '06
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Date Posted:
4/4/07 10:18am
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: David Duke/Tim LaHaye/Jerry Jenkins/Oliver Stone/Mel Gi
- Date Edited:
4/4/07 10:21am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
JMJacenSolo
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Rogue1-and-a-half posted:
LaHaye and Jenkins I find rather distasteful for another reason than Huberman does; I think the book series is poorly written (at least the ones I read, the first five) and the constant spin-offs smack of utter money grubbing.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. While the prose is utterly pedestrian, I actually think, read as straight fiction, its an entertaining read because of the sheer scope of the apocalyptic vision. But once this thing became a gravy train, LaHaye and Jenkins decided to milk it for all its worth. I remember about seven years ago, when I used to read this series religiously(literally and figuratively), I used to participate on the official forums for the series. Then, whaddya know, all of a sudden they switch the forums to a paid membership model instead(to "ensure its quality" of course).
As for whether the pair can be equated to Al-Queda, that's a bit extreme. While the books have certainly converted quite a few people to Christianity, they aren't written with the express purpose of doing so. And of those converted, intolerance is probably the worst thing that's been engendered in their behavior(and even thats a generalization), not killing innocent people.
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Rogue1-and-a-half
Title: Manager: Amphitheatre
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
4/21/07 8:12pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: David Duke/Tim LaHaye/Jerry Jenkins/Oliver Stone/Mel Gi
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Goldberg's 64:
James Wolcott
Cultural writer for Vanity Fair and The New Yorker; Goldberg attacks him for an article wherein he stated that if Kerry won the 2004 election, that he would write an article titled: A time for healing. If, on the other hand, Bush was re-elected, Wolcott said his article would instead be called, "Good, Go Ahead, America, Choke On Your Own Vomit, You Deserve to Die." Goldberg says he is polarizing and mean spirited.
Huberman's 64:
Brown
Janice Rogers Brown, powerful appellate court judge. She calls the New Deal the beginning of American socialism, supports limits on corporate liability, believes racially discriminatory speech is protected by the First Amendment.
Goldberg's 63:
Amy Richards
Woman who wrote a piece in New York Times Magazine wherein she said that she aborted a child because if she had the child, she would need to move out of her fine apartment and start shopping at Costco. Goldberg calls her the perfect example of utilitarian abortion philosophy, wherein abortion has nothing to do with life threatening situations, but is purely an issue of convenience.
Huberman's 63:
Owen
Priscilla Owen, another appeals court judge. Huberman finds it amusing that Alberto Gonzales criticized Owen for ignoring and twisting the law and for 'unconcionable judicial activism.'
My opinion:
Wolcott, I think, was probably trying to be funny; if he was serious, perhaps that would be offensive, but I seriously doubt that he was.
Richards on the other hand, I find absolutely morally repugnant. This is one of my major problems with abortion; I have no problem with abortion in the case of life threatening situations or other extreme circumstances, but this kind of utterly banal reasoning for having an abortion absolutely ludicrous and offensive.
The two judges I know nothing about. Judicial activism is not particularly wise, in my opinion, but this seems to be a purely partisan choice on Huberman's part.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
4/21/07 8:28pm
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: James Wolcott/Brown/Amy Richards/Owen
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James Wolcott
I think that sort of bitter vitrol is EXACTLY the trouble that has led to the inability to really discuss or debate politics in the U.S. The whole problem is that people can't respectfully discuss all this, and I think Wolcott is a very good example of that.
Janice Rogers Brown
With that reasoning on her... I'm honestly confused. First Amendment would cover racially discriminatory speech, I think, so I don't see how that means shes messing up America. Second, the New Deal = socialism thing also doesn't seem to be innately wrong or anything, as that would describe some of the changes under the New Deal
Amy Richards
To me, it sounds like the sort of abortion which is irresponsible and due to her not making better choices before. With that summary, I'd consider it a morally wrong choice, but I do accept its a choice people will make. Still not a mentality I like though.
Priscilla Owen
I can't figure out what she's done. At all.
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Rogue1-and-a-half
Title: Manager: Amphitheatre
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/1/07 9:47am
Subject:
RE: 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America: James Wolcott/Brown/Amy Richards/Owen
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Goldberg's 62:
Howard Stern
Radio shock jock known for his sexual perversity; fired from clear channell for obscenity; currently continues to peddle his profane and sexual and occasionally political rants on satellite radio.
Huberman's 62:
William Pryor
A judicial nominee under the Bush administration; judge on the Eleventh Circuit Court of appeals who called Roe v. Wade, the "worst abomination of constitutional law in or history," he also famously blocked a challenge to the Florida law that prohibits homosexuals from adopting children. He also called for the removal of Judge Roy Moore from his position during the Ten Commandments flap in Alabama.
Goldberg's 61:
Michael Savage
Radio shock jock for the conservative spectrum; he was famously fired from his job at MSNBC for urging a homosexual caller to 'get AIDS and die.'
Huberman's 61:
William Myers
Failed judicial nominee by Bush to the Ninth Circuit. His nomination was famously filibustered by Democrats who took strong exception to his anti-environmental views. A lawyer/lobbyist for ranching and mining industries, Myers argued that the Clean Water Act is unconstitutional and stated that he does not believe in the idea of National Parks.
My thoughts:
Some real fine, upstanding, classy citizens in this bunch, eh?
Stern I find occasionally repugnant, but his social criticism is generally dead on. Huberman even admitted in his book that the only reason that he left Stern off his list was because Goldberg had already put him on his, thus robbing us of our one potential agreement between these two very splintered lists.
I read Stern's Private Parts and found the sexual content quite juvenile and pedantic, truth be told. But his political writings were absolutely dead on target and the man is quite funny when he wants to be. I beg off here. I don't like everything the guy does, but I like some of it.
As for Savage, the man's has lived up to his nom de plume (his real name is Weiner, a fact Huberman would have loads of fun with I'm sure). His comments on race relations, sexuality, religion and just about every other subject under the sun are divisive, offensive and, to my mind, dangerous. He is one of the main propagators of the lowered debate, taking important issues and plunging them into the gutter with his namecalling and vitriolic utterances. Check the link above for a lot of 'great' quotes from this guy. Finally, one I can whole heartedly agree with.
As for Huberman's two nominees, he continues the theme, started last time, of picking on Bush's judicial nominees. I must say I don't know enough about Pryor to really say, but Myers I have long disliked for his stance on the environment. Whether either of them truly have enough influence to be said to be screwing up America (especially Myers, who even Bush couldn't manage to get appointed, after all), is debatable.
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