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Topic:
The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
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HawkNC
Title: FanForce RSA
Oceania
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
9/23/06 12:08am
Subject:
The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
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Welcome! I've started this thread to get a debate and some ideas going on the future of transportation for the world, not just necessarily for personal transport but mass transportation as well. All opinions are welcome, and hopefully we'll all learn something from the process. Aside from being an area of personal and professional interest for me, I think it's important that we find a unified solution to the problem of fossil fuels - competition only works to a point. Beyond that, you get betamax. 
To start us off, I'll pose perhaps the most important question: how much do we need to look into alternative fuels right now? Is the media hype surrounding intiatives such as the "hydrogen economy" and ethanol-powered cars blown out of proportion or are we already working too slow towards a solution?
In my mind, there's no such thing as innovation that comes too early. Even if we have enough oil to last us at a reasonable cost for another generation or two (and the answer to that varies by orders of magnitude, depending on who you ask), the internal combustion engine is a century-old technology that has only had incremental increases in efficiency over the original thanks to new materials and lots of money poured into analysis and research. That "giant leap" mentality that gave us round-the-world air travel and instant communication to anyone, anywhere is only now starting to seep into the mainstream consciousness with automobiles. For me, the price of oil is really only a catalyst to move towards a better technology that, IMO, we should be using anyway.
(Feel free to suggest alternative points of discussion if you wish, I don't see the point in artificially limiting a good debate.)
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
9/23/06 12:22am
Subject:
RE: The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
- Date Edited:
9/23/06 12:25am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DarthBoba
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Well, E85 is already in use all across Minnesota. Only catch is, it's useable in 2006 and up cars, so alot of people who have older cars (which is obviously the majority) are obviously caught with their pants down.
of course, eventually more people will own new cars, so the problem will eventually iron itself out. Not any time soon, though; a car made in 2005 obviously is gonna last a good long time.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
9/23/06 2:05am
Subject:
RE: The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
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I'd suspect a branching out of cars being able to use multiple fuels might be key...
am I making it up, or are there cars that can run on, say, both gasoline and biofuel or whatever it is called?
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HawkNC
Title: FanForce RSA
Oceania
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
9/23/06 2:30am
Subject:
RE: The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
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No car can run unleaded and biodiesel - they require two different engines, one spark ignition and one compression ignition. As DarthBoba said, though, new cars can use unleaded and the E85 blends and any diesel vehicle can use biodiesel. I think the ability to use multiple fuels is critical, which is why the rise of hybrids is so very timely. Cars that run on electric power for short trips, but can switch to ethanol or biodiesel for longer journeys could be very easily made right now - essentially, all you'd need to do is put a sizeable battery in an existing hybrid (look up Prius+ if you're interested in plug-in hybrids) that can use an E85 blend and you've all but freed yourself from petrol prices.
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VadersLaMent
Registered:
Apr '02
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Date Posted:
9/23/06 5:54am
Subject:
RE: The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
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Here is a database of alternative fuels, alternative fuel cars, markets and so on.
eere
And wiki has good entries on Alternative Fuels and Alternative Fuel Cars
I don't believe we will ever see the end of the automobile. In an urban aarea like new york with good public transport a car is not needed, but outside of that I don't see any possibility that a super mass transit system can get all people to any destination.
Popular Mechanics had an article recently detailing how to try and make a 100 mpg car. If I recall correctly they didn;t quite make it using current or very near term technology, but a practical 60 mpg car can be made, but it would cost on average of $50,000 to start for each car. I would think that would come down with mass puchasing. I believe is was a combustion hybrid electric solar assisted car made from the best lightweight materials for the job.
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Sauntaero
Registered:
Jul '03
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Date Posted:
9/23/06 6:19pm
Subject:
RE: The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
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"a practical 60 mpg car can be made, but it would cost on average of $50,000 to start for each car."
50-60 mpg cars already are made, especially in Europe. For example, Volkswagen Turbo Diesels are excellent cars, especially for commuting, or even in less urban areas. My mom has a TD Golf--not necessarily a small car that gets an average of 55 mpg and she commutes over 100 miles per day, so it does pay off. In many places diesel is cheaper than gasoline, an dbiodiesel is available as well.
I think for the immediate fuel future E85 is a great solution. It's true that in MN all gasoline will be a mixture, but even older cars can use it. There's no special mechanism in the engine that suits it for E85 use, only a tougher fuel filter. So the transition from unleaded to E85 is not hard: make the change gradually, little by little notjust decide to fill up with E85 one day, and you'll just need to change your fuel filter pretty soon. But the engine will be fine. Check it out.
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VadersLaMent
Registered:
Apr '02
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Date Posted:
9/23/06 6:25pm
Subject:
RE: The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
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Heh, which means I did not recall correctly.  It would be the stated goal of the article then, a 100 mpg vehicle.
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Penguinator-176
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
9/23/06 8:16pm
Subject:
RE: The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
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I'm of the opinion that the cars of the future will be running on mankind's ego.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
9/23/06 8:25pm
Subject:
RE: The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
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Penguinator-176 posted:
I'm of the opinion that the cars of the future will be running on mankind's ego.
I doubt that. The car isn't built that's big enough to hold that.
Kimball Kinnison
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Fire_Ice_Death
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/23/06 9:10pm
Subject:
RE: The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
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Is there any chance that there could be bioelectric cars some day? I mean, you hook in to your car and that's what it runs off of?
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darthOB1
Registered:
Mar '00
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Date Posted:
9/23/06 10:50pm
Subject:
RE: The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
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miles per thought?  
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HawkNC
Title: FanForce RSA
Oceania
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
9/24/06 12:46am
Subject:
RE: The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
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Fire_Ice_Death posted:
Is there any chance that there could be bioelectric cars some day? I mean, you hook in to your car and that's what it runs off of?
Well, the numbers should speak for themselves. A small, very efficient car could use maybe a 100kW maximum engine; let's say the average power requirement for driving around is 50kW. (Very ballpark figures here.) That's 50,000 Joules of energy required each second. A top athlete uses 8000kJ of energy daily (or 8,000,000 Joules). Assuming that's all done in the time you're awake (~12 hours, or 43200 seconds), your average power output at 100% efficiency is 185W, or 0.185kW. That's for a top athlete. So unless you have a car with the weight of a bicycle, we're simply not powerful enough...and if you DID have a car the weight of a bicycle, you might as well just use the bicycle - it'd be cheaper to buy.
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
9/24/06 2:04am
Subject:
RE: The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
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All of which shows how little sense the Matrix made. Humans are horrible batteries, it would have been so much easier to kill them off and use a real power source. Also, I thought the whole point of cars was to make something else do work for us, why would I want to power my own car? That's just more work for me.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
9/24/06 7:18am
Subject:
RE: The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
- Date Edited:
9/24/06 7:25am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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The 21st century in the U.S. will see the reversal of suburban sprawl. Better designed communities in which people can walk or bicycle to access goods and services will lead to significant reduction of energy requirements. There is no fundamental reason why an advanced technological civilization needs to build its culture around personal motorized transport. The motor scooter or bicycle/scooter combo will replace the car for many functions. Improved public transportation and rail infrastructure in the U.S. to bring it into line with what most of western Europe has achieved is also critical.
Solar, wind, geothermal, wave energy, etc. are all going to be important energy sources, but cannot ever make up most of the energy mix. Nuclear power will become increasingly important.
We have to find a way out of oil and coal dependence, and nuclear power may be the only viable option. But even then there are significant resource constraints. We may have to embrace problematic technologies like breeder reactors.
Forget biofuels. The research about the net energy harvest after all the energy inputs into ethanol production leads to serious doubt about its viability. Even forgetting all that, the pressures of world population growth will not allow us to transfer high percentages of food crop acreage into biofuel acreage.
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HawkNC
Title: FanForce RSA
Oceania
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
9/24/06 7:43am
Subject:
RE: The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
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Jabba: I agree completely with increasing and improving public transport. It's absolutely necessary as part of a wider solution for moving people. I don't see the personal vehicle going anywhere anytime soon, though, and I don't see why it needs to get any smaller. If the vehicles are designed responsibly, people can buy the one that best suits their need without paying a high environmental or social price. Population sprawl needs to be dealt with as well (my own city is undertaking a plan to minimise the outwards growth and encourage higher density living), but I honestly don't know much about the situation in many of the US cities.
As for ethanol...we're past the stage where any one source will provide us with all the energy we need. We've exhausted that option. It's important to consider that ethanol doesn't have only one production method and that not all methods require the same energy inputs, and I've read numerous reports which say that ethanol is both a net positive and a net negative energy process. It's difficult to find an unbiased source because of how much money the US government has invested into it, and there's certainly no clear-cut answer for it. Biofuels in their various forms will stick around for a while, if only because it's what people are used to, but I don't see them becoming the sole fuel of the future.
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
9/24/06 12:27pm
Subject:
RE: The Alternative Fuels Deathmatch, or "How we'll get around in the future"
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There is no fundamental reason why an advanced technological civilization needs to build its culture around personal motorized transport.
I agree with almost everything you have said, but this statement ignores the real reason our current society is built around cars. Personal motorized transport isn't about efficiency, it is about convenience. America was created by those who were seeking new land to expand into. Esspecially in the West, it is ingrained into us the desire to be landowners. While logically it doesn't make any sense to have a city spread out over suburbia, people will resent being moved back into the city if they don't have ownership and have to waste their money on rents. The problem is of course that in a big apartment building it is hard to build one without having to attract a large amount of capital from a few sources. You can build your own house or farm, but you can't build your part of a skyscraper. Successful urban development is just as much about changing attitudes as it is changing landscapes.
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