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Topic:
The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
11/7/07 11:24pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
- Date Edited:
11/7/07 11:28pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lowbacca_1977
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Blue Jedi, I'll raise that "Voices of Iraq" as another interesting documentary.
Though I'm also not sure how your comment is anything more than a non-sequitor, as it doesn't address what is going on in Iraq currently.
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Reecee
Registered:
Feb '04
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Date Posted:
12/14/07 9:28pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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I nearly went into shock this morning. Positive news? From Iraq?
Iraqi oil exceeds pre-war output
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7144774.stm
Is Iraq getting better?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7089168.stm
Seem to be more of a result of the more diplomatic/communal approach leading to a backlash against Al-Qaeda...however, the Economist points out that the state of Iraq is weakened by these deals.
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ObiWan506
Title: JC Head Admin
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
12/16/07 5:03pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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The UK is continuing to lower their count as they hand over complete control of the Basra providence to the Iraqi government.
It should be interesting to see how the political structure holds up there without a security force.
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Ben_Skywalker
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
12/19/07 12:41pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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wouldn't it be ironic if Iraq succeeds in becoming a prosperous democratic country and history thinks highly of George W. Bush (in terms of foreign policy)?
as for the British troops leaving Basra, they're still located on the outskirts and should the security situation break down, British soldiers could easily move back in (temporarily).
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DarthKarde
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
12/19/07 1:34pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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Ben_Skywalker posted:
as for the British troops leaving Basra, they're still located on the outskirts and should the security situation break down, British soldiers could easily move back in (temporarily).
There is absolutely no chance of this happening. From a military perspective it would be a nightmare and from a political perspective it would be unthinkable.
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DroidGeneral
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
12/19/07 4:03pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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Jansons_Funny_Twin posted:
I don't blame Rove, or Rumsfeld, or Cheney. It's Bush. The buck stops with him.
Then you need to read the book, Fiasco by Thomas E. Ricks.
http://www.amazon.com/Fiasco-American-Military-Adventure-Iraq/dp/0143038915/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1198108950&sr=8-1
The people planning this thing screwed up BIG time.
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Ben_Skywalker
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
12/20/07 3:41pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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DarthKarde posted:
Ben_Skywalker posted:
as for the British troops leaving Basra, they're still located on the outskirts and should the security situation break down, British soldiers could easily move back in (temporarily).
There is absolutely no chance of this happening. From a military perspective it would be a nightmare and from a political perspective it would be unthinkable.
Absolutely no chance? How are you so sure? If the Iraqi government wants/needs help, they'll ask. Now, I'm not saying that they'll need the assistance (the Iraqis are proving to be good soldiers), I'm just saying that should the need arise, the British are there. They haven't completely left, just as the Americans will never completely leave (at least for now).
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
12/20/07 5:57pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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Heck, we haven't left from where we've been since World War II
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Gonk
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
12/20/07 6:26pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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Iraqi oil exceeds pre-war output
Fantastic! And it only took them nearly 5 years!
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
12/20/07 7:07pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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According to last month's Harper's, no one really knows how much oil Iraq is exporting. Their pipelines don't have working meters, or any meters at all. They guess how much oil is leaving the country by measuring how much lower tankers lie in the water when they leave the port. Millions of dollars a day are being syphoned off, smuggled, stolen.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
12/20/07 11:23pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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Oil is being stolen? About time!
Though this doesn't explain why I paid 4.80 a gallon yesterday.
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Gonk
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
12/21/07 5:01am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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wouldn't it be ironic if Iraq succeeds in becoming a prosperous democratic country and history thinks highly of George W. Bush (in terms of foreign policy)?
Um, NO. That's NEVER going to happen.
Even if Iraq were to suddenly turn into an unqualified success, Bush will still remembered as someone who had no idea what he was doing and blundered into success and was too stubborn to make the necessary changes without being forced to by the American people.
Bush made a huge error of judgement and hubris. The best history will remember him for was that the American military and the American voter pulled his butt out of the fire by being more compromising than he was and forcing him to change the game plan he would not adequately modify for almost 4 years. Even though 20 years from now Iraq may be better off than it was under Saddam, no doubt the era of 2003-2008 will be titled "Success despite Western incompetence."
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DarthKarde
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
12/21/07 9:02am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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Ben_Skywalker posted:
DarthKarde posted:
Ben_Skywalker posted:
as for the British troops leaving Basra, they're still located on the outskirts and should the security situation break down, British soldiers could easily move back in (temporarily).
There is absolutely no chance of this happening. From a military perspective it would be a nightmare and from a political perspective it would be unthinkable.
Absolutely no chance? How are you so sure? If the Iraqi government wants/needs help, they'll ask. Now, I'm not saying that they'll need the assistance (the Iraqis are proving to be good soldiers), I'm just saying that should the need arise, the British are there. They haven't completely left, just as the Americans will never completely leave (at least for now).
Simply put it would be a political catastrophe for Gordon Brown which would remove any chance of him winning the next general election.
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Ben_Skywalker
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
12/21/07 10:53am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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Gonk posted:
wouldn't it be ironic if Iraq succeeds in becoming a prosperous democratic country and history thinks highly of George W. Bush (in terms of foreign policy)?
Um, NO. That's NEVER going to happen.
Well that's what everyone thought of President Truman and his Korean War debacle at the time. Now we think it was a success in the fight against Communism. Sure they'll remember Bush's stupid phrases and the fact that we went into Iraq for no concrete reasons, but Bush stuck to his plan and IF it succeeds, wouldn't future generations praise his steadfastness in the war on Terror?
By no means am I a Bush supporter. just some food for thought.
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Gonk
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
12/21/07 11:21am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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Well that's what everyone thought of President Truman and his Korean War debacle at the time. Now we think it was a success in the fight against Communism. Sure they'll remember Bush's stupid phrases and the fact that we went into Iraq for no concrete reasons, but Bush stuck to his plan and IF it succeeds, wouldn't future generations praise his steadfastness in the war on Terror?
By no means am I a Bush supporter. just some food for thought.
Truman's largely thought of better than he was, but a lot of that can be traced back to ho historians have dug up his own personality and things like his feud with General MacArthur: in his time MacArthur was an incredible hero, but as time went on his reputation has severely diminished. Not only concerning his behavior in the opening days of America's involvement in WWII, but his own attitude and actions in the Korean War.
In other words, MacArthur himself is now seen to be the authors of many of the failures of the Korean War rather than Truman -- considering MacArthur's own journals detail that during the initial retreat of the North Koreans he just wanted to keep pressing into China; precisely the thing the Chinese were scared about when they entered the war on the side of North Korea. Truman meanwhile was trying to prevent this sort of thing.
Bush is unlikely to ever be thought of later in the same way. Generations trying to praise his steadfastness would be those trying to re-write history -- although I suppose it's done a but today with Ronald Reagan.
But in the end they'd still be wrong because Bush DIDN'T stick to his plan: he was forced to change it. He stuck with Rumsfeld and his tactics right up until just after the 2006 elections, and by every indication (except the administrations oh-so trustworthy word) if the Republican defeat had been less devastating, they might have kept him on after even that. It was only when the Republicans began losing support the Bush changed tactics, and it took nearly four years for that to take place; over four years until the alternate plans were implemented.
Considering how many Americans have died and probably over a million Iraqis have died, Bush will have a hard time getting away from the likelihood that tens to hundreds of thousands have died because he refused to be flexible or to better manage his own war. We'd essentially have to unearth documents that speak to the contrary of things we know right now.
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Shall we set out upon this sea of faces
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