| Author |
Topic:
The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
|
KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
|
Date Posted:
12/21/07 11:27am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
|
|
If Bob Gates had been there from the beginning, history would be phenomenally different, I think.
-----signature-----
"May you live all the days of your life"
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Gonk
Registered:
Jul '98
|
Date Posted:
12/21/07 4:56pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
|
|
True, but the sort of President that would have had Bob Gates there from the beginning would have likely undertaken a very different set of actions to begin with.
-----signature-----
What shall we do to fill the empty spaces
Where waves of hunger gnaw?
Shall we set out upon this sea of faces
In search of more and more and more?
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Lane_Winree
Registered:
Mar '06
|
Date Posted:
12/21/07 4:59pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
|
You do have to wonder, though. What if Gates had overseen the entire war?
No point speculating though. I heard an interesting radio report on a local station that suggested that only five percent of Americans wanted an immediate withdrawal from Iraq. I wish I had heard to conducted the research, though.
-----signature-----
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Jediflyer
Registered:
Dec '01
|
Date Posted:
12/21/07 6:49pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
|
Lane_Winree posted:
I heard an interesting radio report on a local station that suggested that only five percent of Americans wanted an immediate withdrawal from Iraq. I wish I had heard to conducted the research, though.
~50% want out within a year, ~75% want out within two.
-----signature-----
As long as the differences and diversities of mankind exist, democracy must allow for compromise, for accommodation, and for the recognition of differences. -Eugene McCarthy
There are no dialogues, only intersecting monologues -Mark Twain
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Lane_Winree
Registered:
Mar '06
|
Date Posted:
12/21/07 7:05pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
|
|
Ah, excellent chart. Thanks for the clarification.
-----signature-----
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
|
Date Posted:
12/21/07 7:05pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
|
|
Frankly, I don't understand the difference between wanting out "right now" and wanting out within 2 years.
-----signature-----
"There is a country out there where tens of millions
of white Christians, voting freely, selected as their
leader a black man of modest origin, the son
of a Muslim. There is a place on Earth - call it
America - where such a thing happens."
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Ben_Skywalker
Registered:
May '01
|
Date Posted:
12/23/07 11:42am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
|
|
People are thinking that the Iraqis will be able to control their country within 2 years. The Iraqis can not do that now. If we leave prematurely and Iraq falls apart, then our billions of dollars and thousands of lives will be for nothing.
-----signature-----
Those who sacrifice freedom for security, deserve neither.
*Obama '08*
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
|
Date Posted:
12/23/07 12:01pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
|
|
I'm in the group of "as long as it takes." But my guess is that what "it" is means wildly different things to different people.
-----signature-----
"There is a country out there where tens of millions
of white Christians, voting freely, selected as their
leader a black man of modest origin, the son
of a Muslim. There is a place on Earth - call it
America - where such a thing happens."
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Jediflyer
Registered:
Dec '01
|
Date Posted:
12/29/07 7:29am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
|
So you know this Iraq bill that so desperately needed to be passed or else all the civilians in the DoD would have to be fired?
Well, it just got vetoed.
Even more interestingly, it appears this veto was illegal as congress is still technically in session.
-----signature-----
As long as the differences and diversities of mankind exist, democracy must allow for compromise, for accommodation, and for the recognition of differences. -Eugene McCarthy
There are no dialogues, only intersecting monologues -Mark Twain
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
|
Date Posted:
12/29/07 10:39am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
|
Jediflyer posted:
Even more interestingly, it appears this veto was illegal as congress is still technically in session.
Not exactly.
First of all, you might want to read the rulings in the Pocket Veto Case and in Wright v. United States. The key point to consider is how is "adjourned" defined.
The general rule that they give through those two cases is that adjournment is interpreted broadly, covering any situation in which the bill cannot be returned to Congress for action. Specifically, it is supposed to be returned to the House from which it originated - in this case the House of Representatives because it is a spending bill. The House did adjourn on December 21, 2007. Only the Senate is still in session, holding pro forma sessions only.
And that leads to another issue. Pro forma sessions are not legislative in nature. Both Wright and hte Pocket Veto case speak only of Congress being in legislative session.
Of course, the pocket veto hasn't taken effect yet (it should take effect on December 31). From your article that you linked to:In a message to Congress, the president said he was sending the bill and his outline of objections to the House clerk "to avoid unnecessary litigation about the non-enactment of the bill that results from my withholding approval, and to leave no doubt that the bill is being vetoed." I don't see how it was illegal. The House (to whom the bill is to be returned) is not in session, and Bush has promised to send the required list of objections to the House Clerk (the deadline for which hasn't passed), which would make it a normal veto once that happens.
What is your basis for claiming its illegality? At best it would appear to be ambiguous based on the judicial precedents and the President's promise to return the bill with his objections. It's certainly not as straightforward as you protrayed it to be.
Kimball Kinnison
-----signature-----
You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Jediflyer
Registered:
Dec '01
|
Date Posted:
12/29/07 10:49am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
|
I'll agree it is not clear cut, but it certainly raises eyebrows as to not only why he did it, but why he did it the way he did.
We'll see how the Speaker decides to react to it.
-----signature-----
As long as the differences and diversities of mankind exist, democracy must allow for compromise, for accommodation, and for the recognition of differences. -Eugene McCarthy
There are no dialogues, only intersecting monologues -Mark Twain
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
|
Date Posted:
12/29/07 11:11am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
|
Jediflyer posted:
I'll agree it is not clear cut, but it certainly raises eyebrows as to not only why he did it, but why he did it the way he did.
We'll see how the Speaker decides to react to it.
We'll also see if Bush returns the bill to the House as he promised he would.
Kimball Kinnison
-----signature-----
You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
|
Date Posted:
1/9 2:21am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
|
I find it interesting and indicative of the current situation that this thread hasn't had any responses for so many days.
Anyways I just wanted to comment on State of Denial. It isn't the most exciting book I have ever read, but it gave a very in depth view of the White House. One thing it did do was somewhat temper my anger at the administration. After learning how mistaken they were and how many wrong decisions they made, I guess the feeling I had most was pity. They just didn't understand what they were doing. Actually thinking about it, you do learn to get angry, but mostly at just Rumsfield.
And the other thing that I can't help but think about is how I would feel about this war if they hadn't made so many mistakes post-invasion. It seems almost like they did have a reasonable shot at it turning out okay if they had been on the ball from day one. Before the war I supported it, paid absolutely no attention to politics during 03-04, and have become ever increasingly against it since 05.
I guess the one thing I don't think I would change on is that we should have had the international community behind us if we were going to do it. I think we lost far too many friends and created far too many enemies for the war to have ever been realistically "worth it" in a cost-benefit analysis.
The only way I see this war going past the next president is if it is a McCain/Hillary contest and McCain wins. To me the only bright side would be that McCain would actually be able to manage a war, even if it is a lost cause that is sacrificing new young men to honor those already dead.
-----signature-----
A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user.
Theodore Roosevelt
We should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe.
Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
yankee8255
Registered:
May '05
|
Date Posted:
1/9 7:28am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
- Date Edited:
1/9 7:29am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
yankee8255
|
KnightWriter posted:
If Bob Gates had been there from the beginning, history would be phenomenally different, I think.
The question is what constellation would have been around him. Rice and Powell hold similar views to Gates, but were drowned out (well, Powell was, Rice spent the first 4 years avoiding taking sides) by Cheney and Rumsfeld. There were plenty of competent people in the original Bush cabinet, Bush just chose to ignore them in favor of the two-idiot-cabal (three when you count Wolfy).
This goes back to somehting that's so fundamentally disturbed me about W's presidency -- I expected him to be his father's son, at least on foreign policy. Instead, he listened to some of his father's strongest critics, the neo-cons.
-----signature-----
A perfect world: a house in the Hamptons with two solaria and a horse named Prickely Pete,
Dr. van Nostrand as my primary care physician,
the O-OT legally available on DVD in a quality worthy of its greatness
and Luke the undisputed hero of Star Wars
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
|
Date Posted:
1/9 2:44pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Four Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
|
|
I don't think that's right. Rice was one of only two people Bush asked if they should go to war, and she said yes. So she owns this war just as much as anybody else. The one we should really be mad at is Powell who was probably the only one who could have stopped or slowed the march to war in 2003 if he had spoken up and been more willing to go against the President. I understand that part of it was he felt loyalty, especially after 9/11, and also that the administration viewed any dissenting voices as being disloyal. But he was the one that clearly should have known better, I mean he invented the Powell doctrine of overwhelming force which Rumsfield abolished.
-----signature-----
A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user.
Theodore Roosevelt
We should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe.
Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
