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Topic:
The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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Alpha-Red
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
5/6 9:32pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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LordVader66 posted:
Mr. Bush, at the time, had a plan to overthrow 7 governments in 5 years (including Iran's), said something to the jist of go to hell. Is this offer still workable? Hard to say. But Iran is a natural ally of the US, because it's one of the most modern Islamic nations in the world. I mean they allow stem cell reseach and the US doesn't because of a religious stance! How much easier would the job had been if we had a cut a deal? A whole lot. Now, because Ahmadinejad is so hated, it's probably politically unworkable to work a grand bargain with the Iranians. Mr. Bush, since he has wrapped himself in the spread of freedom and liberty, as an excuse for his extreme policies of regional transformation, also would now seem politically unworkable from that end, too.
My hope is that Mr. Obama will cut a deal with the Iranians. He has the most pragmatic foreign policy of any of the candidates and he stands the best chance of salvaging any hope of success in the Middle East for the US.
Is it really possible to work with Iran? It seems that the reformists lose ground with each election while the hard-liners gain more and more power. Not only that, they banned how many candidates from even running for office? A lot of Iranians didn't even bother to go out and vote because of this, if anything the country sounds like it's backsliding on democracy.
Iran may be one of the most modern countries in the Middle East, but so was Nazi Germany. The German scientific community had to have been brilliant to come out with the world's first jet aircraft and guided missile, but look at what cause their creations went on to serve?
It's a tough call....having another president like Bush is unacceptable. But if this is the same Iran that's issued genocidal threats to Israel, that's added fuel to the fire in Iraq, whose Revolutionary Guard insists on escalating conflict in international waters, and who defies the spirit of nuclear non-proliferation, then I have to wonder what their idea of peace really is.
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Blackfryar
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
5/7 12:32am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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a journalist, independent from US propaganda, has reported that what happen today in Iraq is beyond belief. she's living in this country, which give her a edge over the thousands of US reporters that are nothing but notetakers for US army propaganda. she said that violence have reached a peak recently, and things are much worse than 1 year ago, the country is really in complete chaos, the iraqi army is non-existant or corrupted, and US troopers do not control half of the country, in fact she clearly stated that they control nothing but Bagdaad airport. soldiers are desperate to go back home, and the life in the city is literraly "frozen" because people are afraid of even leaving their house. there is nothing like an economic life in the capital city, and the processus of democratization is stopped.
and now some stupids are talking about bombing Iran, hoping to turn the tides and magically change the country into an western democracy like they wanted to do with Iraq. Ahmadinejad has won easily the legislative elections, which mean his party is stronger than ever, and there is nothing like a "magical" pro-american oppposition that would rise and take the power in this country if the "brilliant" Bush decided to start a new war. the only result would be a $200 light sweet crude, and things would only turn for the worst for the economies who only rely on oil.
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
5/7 2:53pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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lol, ready to win the stupid post of the day award?
I'm stationed in Iraq. I've been here eight months, and this is my 2nd deployment here.
I can tell you from personal experience that the situation has gotten incredibly better, and that whatever reporter you're talking about (if he/she even exists; how about you post some links) is full of crap.
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
5/7 3:00pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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If I remember, Fryar lives in Amsterdam, but I'd like to say he moved there from Russia. Some ideas of his get lost in the translation and come off stronger than they should, and others come from a more contradictory perspective.
Best just to look at them as a window into a more anti-US perspective, and not as a basis for a factual debate.
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
5/8 3:26pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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lol. Ok, thanks 44.
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Alpha-Red
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 9:12am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
- Date Edited:
5/15 9:14am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Alpha-Red
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Well see that's the thing....the Bush Administration feeds these perceptions with their arrogant remarks. With the way they talk, how the hell are we supposed to believe they have unbiased and objective views of the situation? Until politicians purge themselves of delusional rhetoric they'll never establish any sort of credibility with people, Americans or otherwise. Loss of credibility is what lost us Vietnam, and what may lose us the War on Terror as well.
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Jabba-wocky
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
5/23 7:01am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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Has anyone heard about this story yet?
It reminds me somewhat of the Blackwater incident at Nissor Square. Apparently, a US helicopter launched an assault on a car full of shepherds, killing two children and a total of eight civilians. Locals are outraged, and the US is again reporting "suspicious activity" and failure to stop. However, I haven't seen any response from higher ups in the Iraqi government yet, so perhaps this is more legitimate. We'll see what unfolds.
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Leto II
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
5/29 10:30am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
- Date Edited:
5/29 10:32am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Leto II
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Surprised no one's discussing McClellan. The CNN.com headline for this story cracks me up. "White House 'puzzled' by ex-spokesman's book bashing Bush." What isn't this White House puzzled by?
(Small, shiny objects. Bells. Tiny, brightly-colored plastic balls. Their own reflections. They're kind of like pet parakeets. Except that parakeets are actually quite smart.)
He was never a very good liar, and it was clear that, unlike the psychotic ex-FOX anchor, and the robotic Dana Perino, McClellan never seemed comfortable repeating Rove's talking points. Ari Fleischer was on various CNN shows yesterday, and he was saying that some of the comments in the book don't sound like Scott. He then went on to add that he spoke to Scott yesterday, and was told that Scott's book editor added things, as well.
That is exactly how this is all going to be spun by the Bushies, because there is already talk of making Scott appear before the House Judiciary Committee. All he has to do is say his editor added things, or emphasized points that he did not mean.
If he had a conscience, he would've piped up sooner. You know, before more servicemen and women were killed.
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LtNOWIS
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
6/1 5:55pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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Convoy attacks in Iraq have plummeted. And remember, Tom Ricks is the guy who wrote Fiasco.
Meanwhile, Basra is finally under government control. Sadr City is undergoing reconstruction as well. Both have been strongholds of Shiite extremists for years. Al Qaeda in Iraq is basically ruined. And, US forces have had another record-breaking month in terms of casualties. 21 KIA is the lowest since February 2004.
So all in all, I'm quite optimistic about our chances of success.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
6/1 11:13pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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LtNOWIS, you're actually wrong on your casualty statistic. Source I have lists deaths for this past May was 19 US, 2 other for 21 total. February 2004 was 20 US, 1 UK, 2 other, for a total of 23 killed in action. So this wasn't the losest since Feb 2004, this was the lowest, period.
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LtNOWIS
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
6/1 11:52pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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Huh. Looks like you're right. I stand corrected.
Anyways, the Washington Post editorial board has the same conclusions as me. It wasn't online when I wrote my post; we just thought the same, apparently.
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Darth Geist
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
6/3 10:55am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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LtNOWIS posted:
Convoy attacks in Iraq have plummeted. And remember, Tom Ricks is the guy who wrote Fiasco.
Meanwhile, Basra is finally under government control. Sadr City is undergoing reconstruction as well. Both have been strongholds of Shiite extremists for years. Al Qaeda in Iraq is basically ruined. And, US forces have had another record-breaking month in terms of casualties. 21 KIA is the lowest since February 2004.
So all in all, I'm quite optimistic about our chances of success.
Definitely good news. And this is encouraging too.
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Jabbadabbado
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
6/10 8:10am
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
- Date Edited:
6/10 8:18am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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"The surge is working."
We've seen the reports. Violence is down. Fewer Iraqis are becoming internally or externally displaced each months. There are now more than 70 Joint Security Stations and Combat Outposts established by U.S. and Iraqi forces in Baghdad. This is up from 10 in early 2007.
Clearly, these kinds of initiatives have made a lot of difference, as have the payments the U.S. military has made to more than 85,000 Sunnis to participate in security improvements as part of the "Sunni Awakening" (despite concerns that Sunnis are using these payments in part to rearm themselves).
One thing we have to understand is that a better military strategy in Iraq will not result in Iraq becoming a workable politically and economically viable integrated state.
The Bush administration, unfortunately, has not coupled its military success with a new diplomatic strategy aiming toward political reconciliation and economic rebirth. The consequence: none of the current progress may be sustainable.
From an April 08 Senate Foreign Relations Committee Hearing I think is a good summary of the situation.
Despite military successes in the "surge," the withdrawal of American troops from Iraq will most likely result in an internal conflagration that could spill over borders, increase the threat of trans-national terrorism, send oil prices soaring further, and add to the number and anguish of 4.5 million Iraqi refugees and displaced people. Yet, keeping American troops in Iraq is an unsustainable stopgap in the absence of major progress toward a political settlement among Iraq’s competing and warring factions.
This is a critical moment for Congress to give the Administration the strongest possible impetus to undertake a focused diplomatic initiative with the United Nations and key international partners to seek a brokered political settlement in Iraq. Such an initiative must go beyond well-worn platitudes about the Administration’s commitment to diplomacy. It must focus on building a sustainable compromise among key Iraqi parties. It must recognize that the U.S. would benefit from a strong UN political role – if that role and its leadership are well structured. It must reflect the need to coordinate diplomatic activity and American military assets.
We must also be realistic. Although the chances for a diplomatic initiative producing a brokered political settlement are not high, it is still worth trying. The cost of trying is low.
The bad news is that any real political progress for Iraq will have to await the end of the Bush administration, but I think this is a good summary of the first order of business for the next president. Re-engage the UN on achieving a brokered political settlement for Iraq that will also transition the U.S. role in Iraq to a UN peacekeeping role.
I don't think McCain is the man for this job.
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
6/10 12:24pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
- Date Edited:
6/10 12:29pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Mr44
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But in this regard, how would he be any different than Obama? First and foremost, Congress is going to have to get involved at least internally. But I also see a couple of other major reasons why Obama would be less effective than McCain:
1)The first reason is that Obama has A LOT, almost too much, to prove. He spent the opening 2/3 of his campaign promising that he would immediately (within 6 months) start removing the troops from Iraq. After just about everyone pointed out that this would be a horrible idea on its own, Obama has backed off on those claims, but he's painted himself into a corner. I'm not sure anyone really believed that he would immediately remove the troops anyway.
The result is that he's left himself to make weird leaps of logic like claiming that he'll remove only "combat troops" from Iraq, without stopping to realize that hostile action is a fickle mistress, and doesn't stop to wait and see what Obama labels as combat troops or not.
2)Point 2 relates back to point 1, in that defaulting too much to the UN is a bad, bad, place to be. Iraq wouldn't even have had to be invaded in 2003 if the entire situation wasn't poisoned by 12 years of UN inefficiency and bureaucracy to the point of outright corruption.
You need someone to keep the US troops on course in Iraq while the ultimate situation is debated within the UN. McCain is certainly more capable than Obama in the first regard, and he's also less one sided than Bush in the other regard.
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Jabbadabbado
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
6/10 12:52pm
Subject:
RE: The New Iraq, Five Years and Counting: Current Discussion Thread
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Re point 1), I don't think Obama will suffer much from, as you say, advocating the wrong policy in Iraq. Even though he has clearly advocated the wrong policy in Iraq. A new diplomatic initiative that involves Congress, the Iraq geopolitical region and the UN is easily the smartest way to split the difference between those who are demanding change on the hopes of a quick U.S. pullout, and those who worry that a quick U.S. pullout is a recipe for disaster.
It really is the only path toward reconciling U.S. domestic political needs and the reality on the ground in Iraq. I believe Obama will be smart enough to see it, and I think most Americans will recognize the need for flexibility in letting Obama chart a course for our Iraq policy. The sacrifice for all of us will be surrendering U.S. control over the outcome, which in any case was already surrendered at the moment of the invasion.
Re point 2) My position is that Iraq didn't have to be invaded in 2003, so I don't have much sympathy for blaming the UN for our current predicament. The UN did a horrible job managing its role in the economic sanctions in part because the overall policy of economic sanctions was so horrible and unworkable. There's no getting around the corruption, but still. The sanction regime was wrongheaded from the beginning.
You need someone to keep the US troops on course in Iraq while the ultimate situation is debated within the UN. McCain is certainly more capable than Obama in the first regard, and he's also less one sided than Bush in the other regard.
One thing that I think would be reasonable for either Obama or McCain to do is keep Gates on as secretary of defense. Is there any precedent for this? You have a successful wartime secretary of defense with a new president coming in.
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