| Author |
Topic:
Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
6/5/07 8:41pm
Subject:
RE: Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?
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Ah, post hoc ergo propter hoc, my old friend.
E_S
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In this truth he knew himself to be.
From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
6/5/07 9:04pm
Subject:
RE: Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?
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Ender, I think you're misapplying that falacy.
Surfer didn't say that the gun bans CAUSED those shootings, just that if gun control was supposed to prevent these crimes that then there should have been a decrease correlating to those increased gun control measures, which does not show, at a minimum in relation to school shootings.
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
6/5/07 9:09pm
Subject:
RE: Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?
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Not really:
"If gun control works, none of those events should have taken place, after passage of a gun control act"
After we've established through facts and figures that gun availability isn't a factor in crime, then to assume that more guns would have been preventative is as amusing a fantasy as the notion that arming Africans would keep the peace.
E_S
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Surfer_With_A_Badge
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
6/5/07 10:53pm
Subject:
RE: Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
Ender, I think you're misapplying that falacy.
Surfer didn't say that the gun bans CAUSED those shootings, just that if gun control was supposed to prevent these crimes that then there should have been a decrease correlating to those increased gun control measures, which does not show, at a minimum in relation to school shootings.
Pretty much. The gun control measures, designed to keep these kinds of massacres from happening, clearly haven't despite adding layer after layer of laws. In spite of these laws, and those passed at the state and local levels, these crimes still occured.
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Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true.
If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
6/6/07 1:21am
Subject:
RE: Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?
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Ender_Sai posted:
Not really:
"If gun control works, none of those events should have taken place, after passage of a gun control act"
After we've established through facts and figures that gun availability isn't a factor in crime, then to assume that more guns would have been preventative is as amusing a fantasy as the notion that arming Africans would keep the peace.
E_S
Ender, however, the point was the inefficiency of the gun laws. That is to say, increased gun laws don't show a decrease in spree shootings at schools. The point wasn't to show that more guns would be better, but that the gun laws added in didn't do anything preventative as it relates to school shootings.
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
6/6/07 5:54pm
Subject:
RE: Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?
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I wonder then, Lowie, could we be looking at it wrong? What if the restrictions just didn't go far enough?
E)S
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Master_SweetPea
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
6/6/07 7:23pm
Subject:
RE: Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?
- Date Edited:
6/6/07 7:24pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_SweetPea
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true we should ban students from schools.
*that's a joke folks*
with any problem everyone has a different approach.
i can only say...uhm...I'll get back to you on that.
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I don't like the donkeys and I don't like the Elephants http://www.lp.org "Some people never have anything except ideas Go Do it! Lucky Numbers 3, 11, 21, 31, 41, 43"
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
6/6/07 9:19pm
Subject:
RE: Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?
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Ender_Sai posted:
I wonder then, Lowie, could we be looking at it wrong? What if the restrictions just didn't go far enough?
E)S
Well, I would counter that it shows that the bans have not been effective, and that I think the motivation or lead up to these crimes, at least for spree killings, is something much more important to look at than the means. If the change was flat, then I think that would carry some weight. However, the rate of these incidents seem to be increasing. There has been at least one a year every year since 1995, and 1995 to 2005 saw 12 school shootings, while 1985 to 1994 saw 3. I would say that this is a symptom of a problem that isn't simply the presence of guns, be it too many or too few. Its a deeper issue.
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Master_SweetPea
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
6/13/07 9:14am
Subject:
RE: Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?
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In other news I've reccently been directed to a Gun Builders forum and I think I'll build a rifle for myself!
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I don't like the donkeys and I don't like the Elephants http://www.lp.org "Some people never have anything except ideas Go Do it! Lucky Numbers 3, 11, 21, 31, 41, 43"
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
6/17/07 7:15pm
Subject:
RE: Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?
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ONe dead, two wounded in Melbourne CBD shooting
Eyewitnesses saw the man drag a woman out of a cab on the corner of Flinders Lane and William Stree in the city just after 8am.
Two bystanders apparently came to help the woman, only for the aggressor to pull a handgun and shoot all three.
Thoughts? It's pretty shocking here, and fairly if not completely uncommon.
E_S
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Ree
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
6/17/07 9:09pm
Subject:
RE: Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?
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All I want to know is how the hell he got a gun! If I could I'd swear here but I'm not allowed. He just killed someone! ****hole.
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"They taped over your mouth, scribbled out the truth with their lies..."-Paramore
Master to snowspeeder_gunner
Council Member in The New Jedi Trials
"Jedi stabbing Jedi? How peverse"
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
6/17/07 9:11pm
Subject:
RE: Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?
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Well, I think it cuts to the heart of the debate as seen from the two "camps" (for lack of a better word)
There can't be any more restrictions on handguns put in place, at least in any kind of practical sense, in Australia, and the couple who were initially involved knew each other. Few details have been released as of yet, but it's an unfortunate incident of violence that would have occurred no matter what the guy was armed with.
E_S, this is a somewhat related question because I'm not sure of the answer. In the US, in almost all cases, police officers are authorized to be armed both on and off duty. In Australia, the police usually check-out their duty weapon to go on duty, and check in back in upon completion of their shift, correct? The police don't routinely carry off duty do they?
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hostile or otherwise
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
6/17/07 9:26pm
Subject:
RE: Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?
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I know NSW police generally do not take their weapons home. They can, if they have a correct and legal gun safe, but they otherwise cannot. Australian Federal Police investigators, Customs and ASIO officers I imagine would have similar rules, but I can't confirm this.
E_S
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Ree
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
6/17/07 9:57pm
Subject:
RE: Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?
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Hmm i didn't know that.
Cool.
-----signature-----
"They taped over your mouth, scribbled out the truth with their lies..."-Paramore
Master to snowspeeder_gunner
Council Member in The New Jedi Trials
"Jedi stabbing Jedi? How peverse"
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
6/17/07 10:42pm
Subject:
RE: Do Guns Kill People or Do People Kill People?
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I heard this on the news on my way out of the airport in sydney... and it was top news. In LA, one person being shot that far away usually isn't considered newsworthy.
well, there is also that point has been made that guns aren't entirely banned here, just heavily restricted.
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