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Topic:
Extraterrestrials: real, or a hoax? v.2
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_Darth_Poodoo_
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/10/07 8:34pm
Subject:
RE: Extraterrestrials: real, or a hoax? v.2
- Date Edited:
1/10/07 8:38pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
_Darth_Poodoo_
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That's a good point- there may be some other "intelligence" that is undectable by our methods. But why then, would we bother probing for such a foreign intelligence. It's pure speculation, fantasy if you will, to believe that there are any such intelligences, because they are not currently detectable by scientific methods. We don't even know *how* to probe for them.
I'd say that current ET searches (ones that use our technology and scientific knowledge) are futile. Any other ET speculation is pure fantasy- entertaining fiction that *might* be true, but is not provable.
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
1/10/07 8:38pm
Subject:
RE: Extraterrestrials: real, or a hoax? v.2
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Maybe some of the various 'gods' are such intelligences. Undetectable by human science but able to communicate with human beings.
Yet for some reason interested in nothing better than being worshipped. Maybe "intelligences" is the wrong term.
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_Darth_Poodoo_
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/10/07 8:41pm
Subject:
RE: Extraterrestrials: real, or a hoax? v.2
- Date Edited:
1/10/07 8:41pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
_Darth_Poodoo_
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Well, if you want to use such broad terms, it becomes a much bigger can of worms. My argument mainly applies to the search for *physical* (but yet undetectable) beings that reside in this dimension.
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
1/10/07 8:43pm
Subject:
RE: Extraterrestrials: real, or a hoax? v.2
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That's what I'm talking about, too.
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Beowulf
Registered:
May '99
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Date Posted:
1/11/07 8:08am
Subject:
RE: Extraterrestrials: real, or a hoax? v.2
- Date Edited:
1/11/07 8:57am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Beowulf
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If y'all want to see an interesting theory and equation on how many non-terrestrial civilizations may exist, check out this article. It is very interesting, even if it is a relatively liberal theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation
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Benjamin Franklin
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Vaderize03
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
1/11/07 8:22am
Subject:
RE: Extraterrestrials: real, or a hoax? v.2
- Date Edited:
1/11/07 8:23am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Vaderize03
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Given the sheer size of space, any civilization advanced enough to get here would have to have solved the enigma of the Zero Point, because nothing less than tapping the Zero Point Field could provide enough energy for interstellar travel. Even creating a stable wormhole would involve bending spacetime to the nth degree, a difficult and dangerous proposition.
One thing to consider: if highly advanced civilizations did exist in our galaxy, it's entirely possible, not to mention probable, that we may have detected waste energy from their activities at this point, assuming they are not eclipsed on the other side of the galactic plane.
So far, we have not. That certainly does not mean that they aren't there, especially given the amount of time it takes for light to travel, but it certainly does lower the odds somewhat.
Peace,
V-03
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Darth Mischievous
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
1/11/07 1:22pm
Subject:
RE: Extraterrestrials: real, or a hoax? v.2
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If this particular universe is expanding and finite in reference to space and time, then there is a definitive fringe, or edge, that is expanding.
I tend to think - like V03 - that the distances are so vast that it is highly unlikely that any civilization, no matter how technologically advanced, can transverse such distances easily, if at all.
If they certainly can't in our own galaxy, it would be almost impossible to imagine galaxy-to-galaxy travel.
'Backwater planet' is not really appropriately descriptive, if we look at our own inquisitive nature. Even if we knew life existed on various planets, wouldn't humans still be interested in visiting such 'backwater' worlds to add to the galactic biology and science database for humans to understand?
It seems to me that the space is too vast or the time for such a run-in is simply not exacting enough, as we know it takes millions of years for light itself to transverse the galaxy.
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Beowulf
Registered:
May '99
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Date Posted:
1/11/07 1:51pm
Subject:
RE: Extraterrestrials: real, or a hoax? v.2
- Date Edited:
1/11/07 3:12pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Beowulf
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How about we drop the backwater thing and focus on NTIs? The only reason I used said word would be a description of our planet from another perspective, such as how some towns in rural or low population areas would be considered backwater for such things as older cars, bad buildings, etc...
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"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
Benjamin Franklin
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
1/11/07 1:53pm
Subject:
RE: Extraterrestrials: real, or a hoax? v.2
- Date Edited:
1/11/07 1:58pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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Vaderize03, do you mean "zero point" waste energy or waste energy from a civilization like ours? If you mean the latter, how far have the signals from our "waste energy" traveled. 100 light years?
So, we've exposed signs of our industrial civilization to what - 5000, 10,000, 15,000 stars? In other words, not many. We haven't left much of a mark on the galaxy.
A really advanced civilization should be able to mask signs of its waste energy.
Another possibility is that high tech civilizations tend to be short-lived. A planet's intelligent life advances to a high tech industrialized state, blows the wad of its resource base, then plunges back to a more or less permanent pre-industrial level.
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anidanami124
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
1/11/07 3:29pm
Subject:
RE: Extraterrestrials: real, or a hoax? v.2
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Darth Mischievous posted:
If this particular universe is expanding and finite in reference to space and time, then there is a definitive fringe, or edge, that is expanding.
I tend to think - like V03 - that the distances are so vast that it is highly unlikely that any civilization, no matter how technologically advanced, can transverse such distances easily, if at all.
If they certainly can't in our own galaxy, it would be almost impossible to imagine galaxy-to-galaxy travel.
'Backwater planet' is not really appropriately descriptive, if we look at our own inquisitive nature. Even if we knew life existed on various planets, wouldn't humans still be interested in visiting such 'backwater' worlds to add to the galactic biology and science database for humans to understand?
It seems to me that the space is too vast or the time for such a run-in is simply not exacting enough, as we know it takes millions of years for light itself to transverse the galaxy.
I agree with ever thing but that top part. I agree that same is very vast to the point I find it hard to believe. The thing I disagree with you on is the universe expanding. I mean it could be expanding but then that would bring up just how big is the universe. Maybe it's not expanding. But then what is there. Really this is something that has so much deabte that there is no right or wrong answer. I mean it all comes down to how big is the universe. The only why something like that could be answered is to go back to before it all happened.
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Beowulf
Registered:
May '99
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Date Posted:
1/11/07 3:36pm
Subject:
RE: Extraterrestrials: real, or a hoax? v.2
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Actually, the universe that we can see is expanding. It has been proven by astronomical observations. But we don't know exactly how big the universe is, mostly cause we can only see so far.
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"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
Benjamin Franklin
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
1/11/07 8:36pm
Subject:
RE: Extraterrestrials: real, or a hoax? v.2
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Beowulf posted:
Actually, the universe that we can see is expanding. It has been proven by astronomical observations. But we don't know exactly how big the universe is, mostly cause we can only see so far.
which means that there may be civilizations beyond our capacity to detect, for all you doubters out there. 
I like this thread; it's something that's wholly intangible, ie, no one side is right or wrong. It's less of a debate and more of an open forum for concepts & ideas.
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Upstate NY: First-World Country,
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Vaderize03
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
1/12/07 6:26am
Subject:
RE: Extraterrestrials: real, or a hoax? v.2
- Date Edited:
1/12/07 6:33am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Vaderize03
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Zero Point Energy is the background vibration that exists in the vacuum once it is cooled to absolute zero.
In other words, there is no completely "zero" state, but a baseline level of vibration. On the quantum level, this is a sea of energy that represents the sum total of all possible vibrations in all directions. This energy field is theorized to interact with subatomic particles, replenishing their energy; it is the virtual "sea" that contains all possible combinations of charges from which the wave function of subatomic particles collapses upon observation to form a "real" particle.
Some physicists, such as Hal Puthoff, theorize that the ZPF is what is really responsible for intertial mass. He postulates that mass, like matter, is an illusion caused by the "drag" of the field on the quantum vibrations of atoms. Essentially, the ZPF is a sea of light that acts as a substructure to the visible universe which both underpins and possible "projects" it; when you try and accelerate an object in the vacuum, the field "grabs" on to it and gives the illusion of inertia. He also theorizes that this is where gravity comes from.
Anyway, this is off topic, but my point is that ZP energy may provide the means by which we will one day be able to bend space-time into wormholes for interstellar travel.
Peace,
V-03
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"Bring your pretty face to my axe....."
B-O-H-I-C-A !! (that was funny DM!)
"I'm what Willis was talking about"
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
1/12/07 7:13am
Subject:
RE: Extraterrestrials: real, or a hoax? v.2
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Yep. Frank Drake's (SETI founder) position is pretty sobering:
[T]he energy requirements are ridiculous, at least to us. To send a spacecraft the size of a small airliner at one-tenth the speed of light requires as much energy as the US now produces in more than a hundred years. And that just gets you someplace - it doesn't provide for a landing or a return home. To put it another way, it takes 10 million times as much energy to move a small space colony to another star as it takes to establish the same colony in the home system.
Even if you assume that commercially viable fusion power will start proliferating within 100 years or so, that won't fit the bill.
So, if you propose an extraterrestrial race advanced enough to scout out our solar system in vehicles capable of interstellar travel, dip into the atmosphere and abduct a few people/farm animals, you're indeed proposing a species so much more advanced than us, with access to an almost infinitely more powerful energy source, that the earth probably wouldn't interest them much per se, unless they have a policy of destroying any intelligent species they encounter. If they needed a new home, they could probably build one from scratch.
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
1/12/07 12:58pm
Subject:
RE: Extraterrestrials: real, or a hoax? v.2
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Jabbadabbado posted:
Yep. Frank Drake's (SETI founder) position is pretty sobering:
[T]he energy requirements are ridiculous, at least to us. To send a spacecraft the size of a small airliner at one-tenth the speed of light requires as much energy as the US now produces in more than a hundred years. And that just gets you someplace - it doesn't provide for a landing or a return home. To put it another way, it takes 10 million times as much energy to move a small space colony to another star as it takes to establish the same colony in the home system.
Even if you assume that commercially viable fusion power will start proliferating within 100 years or so, that won't fit the bill.
So, if you propose an extraterrestrial race advanced enough to scout out our solar system in vehicles capable of interstellar travel, dip into the atmosphere and abduct a few people/farm animals, you're indeed proposing a species so much more advanced than us, with access to an almost infinitely more powerful energy source, that the earth probably wouldn't interest them much per se, unless they have a policy of destroying any intelligent species they encounter. If they needed a new home, they could probably build one from scratch.
Well, there goes the last vestige of reality from SW.
"We don't like what you've done with this galaxy, Palpatine. So..we're just gonna let bygones be bygones and build another one."
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