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Topic:
The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
2/2/07 11:25am
Subject:
The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
- Date Edited:
2/2/07 12:38pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Mr44
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Illegal immigration is a problem in the US. It is a bigger problem than most believe. Here are some pictures I took this morning:
All of these pictures were taken along Gilbert Road between Main Street and Broadway. It is a stretch of road that is about a half mile. All of these illegals...hundreds of them...line this stretch of road everyday looking for "day labor." This is just one of hundreds of other stretches of road in the Phoenix area that have hundreds of illegals looking for work.
Notice that this is not an industrial area nor is it a run down part of town. This is a middle class neighborhood. We are overrun with illegals. It is a national security issue tied, IMO, with terrorism...the number one national issue; again IMO.
So, what do we do about this? President Bush is demanding a "comprehensive" bill. I think the issue is too big and complicated to be handled in a single bill. I'll explain:
Let's say that you walk into your bathroom and see that the sink is overflowing and water is flooding onto the floor. The first thing you would want to do is to turn off the water. we agree on that. Yet you can't because you haven't decided whether to unclog the drain before you mop up the floor or vice-versa. So the water keeps running.
Then you have to decide if you want to mop up the water or use a squeegee...and the water is still running.
Then you realize that the water isn't really bad water and since the shower needs cleaned you may want to use some of the water for that purpose. Meanwhile...nobody's turned off the water yet!
So here is my take:
1) Stop the flow of illegals. How?
A) Build a wall.
B) Make legal crossing easier
C) Recind a hike in minimum wage until the boarder is secure. A hike will only make it more desirable for illegals to come here and make employers more willing to have "off the books" workers.
D) No longer give citizenship entitlement to children born of people who are here illeglly.
E) Allow no wefare or Social Security programs availible to those who choose to enter illegally.
After the boarder is secure we can move on to the next step: What do we do with those already here?
2) Mass deportation. C'mon. It ain't that expensive and we have the resources for it. Companies that are willing to "sponsor" any that are already here may do so. But said individuals will never be allowed to be citizens nor collect from public money. A fair trade for cutting in line ahead of those who came here legally.
Is it that hard?
J_Rod I removed most of the pictures because of a complaint that it makes the page load too slowly for our users with dial-up. You can certainly display your photos in the thread here, but can you link to them instead of directly displaying them?
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Ominous
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
2/2/07 12:14pm
Subject:
RE: The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
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J-Rod,
You might want to notify the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office. They recently passed that law in AZ that allows the DA to prosecute illegals for human smuggling (smuggling of themselves).
There are million dollar homes that I drive by everyday in California that have illegals standing outside on the street waiting for work. Course there are farm fields across the street.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
2/2/07 2:10pm
Subject:
RE: The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
- Date Edited:
2/2/07 2:17pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lowbacca_1977
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J-Rod, I'd been wanting to start a thread on just this, myself.
My view on immigration in general, and illegal immigration specifically...
Immigration does hold great benefits for the U.S., but I think that we are at a point where there needs to be some controls. First of all, there is an issue of security. Second, with a welfare state, there needs to be some regulation.
In general, I think the whole system is in need of reform. With the importance of immigration, and the numbers wanting to come here, I think its important to make it easier for those going through the system that want to be here and respect law, rather than turning a blind eye to those that clearly DON'T care about American law.
I think the gov't move to make the costs to become a citizen higher is an absolutely ridiculous step away from encouraging people that want to come here to work within the system. We need stronger prosecution of those that are hiring illegal immigrants (let it dry up the market... they can't work, they won't come or stay), and I would also like to see reform to get rid of illegal immigrants exploiting 'anchor babies', as I feel that if you have a kid here when you're going to get deported, you're putting that child in a harmful situation. That said, I would also like to see a lot of the red tape that goes into coming here legally removed, the process as a whole streamlined, and quotas increased across the board.
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Neo-Paladin
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
2/2/07 2:20pm
Subject:
RE: The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
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Alright, I'll bite.
Why don't you list prosecution of employers as an way to end the problem? If the government enforces its laws in that regard the supply of jobs dry up, problem... solved? Frankly, from my view, this should be the easiest and most powerful way to resolve this issue.
I don't think this is the most important issue in the doc, but I can see the value of addressing this.
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
2/2/07 3:05pm
Subject:
RE: The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
- Date Edited:
2/2/07 3:07pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
J-Rod
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Alright, I'll bite.
Why don't you list prosecution of employers as an way to end the problem? If the government enforces its laws in that regard the supply of jobs dry up, problem... solved? Frankly, from my view, this should be the easiest and most powerful way to resolve this issue.
Two reasons:
1) We already have laws on the books for this. They need only be enforced. It is, after all, a huge federal offence to hire someone without a Social Security number.
2) So many of the illegals have false Social Security numbers and I don't believe an employer should bear the cost of validating numbers that the government is responsible for enforcing. This is also why I don't think that renters or realtors can be held liable for doing business with illegals.
I don't think this is the most important issue in the doc, but I can see the value of addressing this.
This opinion is the major problem with this issue. Did you see all the pictures before they were removed due to time constraints? It is one of the biggest problems we face as a nation.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
2/2/07 3:16pm
Subject:
RE: The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
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J-Rod posted:
Two reasons:
1) We already have laws on the books for this. They need only be enforced. It is, after all, a huge federal offence to hire someone without a Social Security number.
2) So many of the illegals have false Social Security numbers and I don't believe an employer should bear the cost of validating numbers that the government is responsible for enforcing. This is also why I don't think that renters or realtors can be held liable for doing business with illegals.
So if you're simply suggesting what needs to be fixed, shouldn't the enforcement of those laws specifically be mentioned? I mean, I think the statistic is that there's been less enforcement of hiring people without SS #s under Bush than Clinton (I'd need to double check that though)
Second, plenty of employers are fully aware they are hiring illegals. There is a very big difference between accidentally hiring an illegal and hiring large numbers of illegally knowingly. Many companies don't bother to check, for example.
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
2/2/07 3:25pm
Subject:
RE: The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
- Date Edited:
2/2/07 3:26pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
J-Rod
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I mean, I think the statistic is that there's been less enforcement of hiring people without SS #s under Bush than Clinton (I'd need to double check that though)
Depends on how you look at the statistics. There are now waaaaaaayyyyy more illegals here than in Clinton's years. But are a higher percentage of them working with false SS#?
Second, plenty of employers are fully aware they are hiring illegals.
Certainly. But how do you prove an employer knew the SS# was false and how do you prove another honestly thought it was valid?
And I guess I was assuming that stricter enforcement of existing laws was simply taken for granted. After all, do we need to make a law that says laws must be enforced?
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
2/2/07 3:59pm
Subject:
RE: The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
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J-Rod posted:
I mean, I think the statistic is that there's been less enforcement of hiring people without SS #s under Bush than Clinton (I'd need to double check that though)
Depends on how you look at the statistics. There are now waaaaaaayyyyy more illegals here than in Clinton's years. But are a higher percentage of them working with false SS#?
Second, plenty of employers are fully aware they are hiring illegals.
Certainly. But how do you prove an employer knew the SS# was false and how do you prove another honestly thought it was valid?
And I guess I was assuming that stricter enforcement of existing laws was simply taken for granted. After all, do we need to make a law that says laws must be enforced?
I was talking strict numbers J-Rod, not percentages. Which actually underscores the problem.
On the second count... when just suggesting what needs to get done, actual enforcement is a key thing to point out. Immigration control away from the borders hasn't been practiced much.
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
2/2/07 4:17pm
Subject:
RE: The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
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I was talking strict numbers J-Rod, not percentages. Which actually underscores the problem.
Sure. But I'm not interested in determining blame. I'm looking for ideas.
On the second count... when just suggesting what needs to get done, actual enforcement is a key thing to point out. Immigration control away from the borders hasn't been practiced much.
For the record, of course enforcement of existing laws should be done...and in a strict fashion.
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
2/2/07 4:27pm
Subject:
RE: The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
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J-Rod posted:
1) Stop the flow of illegals. How?
A) Build a wall.
The rest of your plan kind of hinges on this step. However, I have yet to see the evidence that building a wall would 1) be effective in stopping migrants or 2) be economically feasible relative to any strain illegal immigration may put on the economy (presuming even that illegal immigration is a net negative to the economy, which I think is a false presumption).
I don't think either of these things is true. I don't think the US-Mexico border is securable in the way that you seem to want. Moreover, as I said, I don't think illegal immigration has a net negative impact on our society or economy.
For me, the key is documentation. We just need to get everybody on the books. Essentially, what we need is an amnesty and a guest worker program.
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
2/2/07 4:37pm
Subject:
RE: The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
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I don't think either of these things is true. I don't think the US-Mexico border is securable in the way that you seem to want. Moreover, as I said, I don't think illegal immigration has a net negative impact on our society or economy.
Did you see the pictures? When a society is overrun with illegals it is always a drain. Schools, health care, crime, welfare all take a hit.
In the last four years AZ has fell to number 50 for education and rose to #1 for violent crime. Much of that is due to illegal immigration.
For me, the key is documentation. We just need to get everybody on the books. Essentially, what we need is an amnesty and a guest worker program.
This has been done repeatedly over the last 25 years and hasn't worked. What is different now that you think it will work this time?
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darth_paul
Registered:
Apr '00
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Date Posted:
2/2/07 5:06pm
Subject:
RE: The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
- Date Edited:
2/2/07 5:09pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
darth_paul
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Edit: Actually, I can read. Though what I posted would not have you believe it. Need to do a bit more thinking and researching before asking that question.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
2/2/07 5:22pm
Subject:
RE: The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
- Date Edited:
2/2/07 5:23pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lowbacca_1977
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darth_paul posted:
Part of writing an amendment to accomplish what you propose would involve setting forth a new standard for who's a citizen without being naturalized. What would you make it?
I see two options. One, you make it that to be a citizen at birth, a parent has to have been here legally, be it as a citizen, resident, or visa. Or, you make it so that you can deport someone even if they subsequently had a child here, and acknowledge its the parent putting the child into a bad position there.
dizfactor posted:
The rest of your plan kind of hinges on this step. However, I have yet to see the evidence that building a wall would 1) be effective in stopping migrants or 2) be economically feasible relative to any strain illegal immigration may put on the economy (presuming even that illegal immigration is a net negative to the economy, which I think is a false presumption).
Well, building a fence does work. Building a fence near San Diego pushed a lot of the illegal immigrants into Arizona and New Mexico where there wasn't a fence in the way. Now, if a fence is feasible for the whole border or not is a debateable matter, but at least parts of it being walled off have proven useful.
As for the cost, well, there have been studies suggesting 12 Americans are murdered each day by illegal immigrants and 13 are killed in accidents caused by illegal immigrants that are drunk. A very large share of warrants in L.A. are for illegal immigrants. And that doesn't cover any financial issues, either.
dizfactor posted:
For me, the key is documentation. We just need to get everybody on the books. Essentially, what we need is an amnesty and a guest worker program.
You're right. When Reagan had the amnesty, that stopped illegal immigration as an issue.
Amnesty and guest worker programs will solve nothing, in large part because they ignore WHY illegals are often hired in the first place. Its cheaper to hire an illegal immigrant because they are less likely to file for workers comp or report other problems in the work place. Creating legal workers will just lead to new illegal immigrants taking the same jobs where they can be mistreated. The guest worker programs that have been suggested are filled with holes and don't fix the problems. Further, the idea that we will offer future amnesties will be another reason to try to come here illegally, and it ignores those that are waiting for their chance to come here legally and show respect for our laws.
J-rod posted:
Sure. But I'm not interested in determining blame. I'm looking for ideas.
Fair enough, but still, if you're suggesting what needs to be done, enforcement of current laws should be on there since its not happening now.
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
2/2/07 6:17pm
Subject:
RE: The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
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Did you see the pictures? When a society is overrun with illegals it is always a drain. Schools, health care, crime, welfare all take a hit.
It is an odd feeling to see pictures here of an area that I have spent a considerable amount of time around. I am surrounded by the same things you are, and yet my opinions certainly differ from yours.
Just an observation.
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
2/2/07 6:35pm
Subject:
RE: The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
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Care to go into detail?
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Neo-Paladin
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
2/2/07 9:35pm
Subject:
RE: The Comprehensive Illegal Immigrant Thread
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J-Rod posted:
Alright, I'll bite.
Why don't you list prosecution of employers as an way to end the problem? If the government enforces its laws in that regard the supply of jobs dry up, problem... solved? Frankly, from my view, this should be the easiest and most powerful way to resolve this issue.
Two reasons:
1) We already have laws on the books for this. They need only be enforced. It is, after all, a huge federal offence to hire someone without a Social Security number.
...
Of this I am aware, which is why I wrote prosecution, not write, implement, and prosecute a bunch of new laws. If it is a question of making a check easier for the employers, this should be a fairly straight forward thing. At the end of the day I'm convinced that all other avenues are doomed to failure. The laws of supply and demand really aren't something you can legislate. If there is work to be had, they will get here to have the work.
It's not dissimilar to the 'drug war' issue.
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