Lowbacca_1977 posted:I didn't say there's no one poor in the U.S., just that it is a very small group that I think would be considered poor by standards of other countries. For example, the argument that nearly 1/3 of the U.S. is nearly in poverty does not make sense when, for example, 70% of Americans are internet users. According to the Census, even at incomes from $15,000 and under for households, 25% of them have internet access. That's not on par with "needing food and shelter" There is a difference between giving opportunities to lower-income people and considering those groups to be without the basics. Comparing U.S. 'poor' and Mexican 'poor' is similar to comparing apples and oranges.
Princess_Tina posted:You didn't answer the question. Which specific figures are you using when you claim that the U.S. has virtually eliminated absolute poverty?
Kimball_Kinnison posted:Princess_Tina posted:You didn't answer the question. Which specific figures are you using when you claim that the U.S. has virtually eliminated absolute poverty?Try looking up Purchasing Power Parity sometime. According to the CIA Factbook (2007), you can look at the PPP per capita for different nations. This map may help you: Most of Africa has a per capita PPP on the order of 1000. The US has a per capita PPP over 45000. Mexico, Central, and South America are all on the order of 9000-15000. That means that on average, an individual in the US has 3-5 times the global purchasing power of a person in Latin America. That would put the average individual in Latin America below the poverty line in the US. Kimball Kinnison
DeathStar1977 posted:Lowbacca I agree with a lot of what you and KK are saying, but I do have a question: According to the Census, even at incomes from $15,000 and under for households, 25% of them have internet access. What does 'access' mean? In their homes? At the library? Within one hundred miles? You see what I'm asking.
Lowbacca_1977 posted:DeathStar1977 posted:Lowbacca I agree with a lot of what you and KK are saying, but I do have a question: According to the Census, even at incomes from $15,000 and under for households, 25% of them have internet access. What does 'access' mean? In their homes? At the library? Within one hundred miles? You see what I'm asking. Sure, didn't provide link on that one as I was on way out and it was from the Census... its presence of the internet in the household. http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/computer/2003/tab01A.xls
Princess_Tina posted:Yes, but I didn't ask you which figures you used to establish that, on average, someone in the U.S. has 3-5 times the global purchasing power of someone in Latin America. I asked you which figures you used to claim that the U.S. has "virtually eliminated absolute poverty". Because that sounds like there's official figures showing the U.S. has "virtually eliminated absolute poverty", and I don't recall any politicians taking credit for "virtually eliminating absolute poverty" in the U.S. But maybe I just missed it.
Princess_Tina posted:And a random search for stories about "eliminating poverty" in the U.S. yielded this result from just last year:
Princess_Tina posted:So it sounds like a lot of politicians are still talking about how many Americans live in poverty, without making any clarification as to whether these millions of Americans live in absolute poverty or in relative poverty. So where did you find the figures that show that the U.S. has "virtually eliminated absolute poverty"?
Kimball_Kinnison posted: Well, for a family of 3, the poverty line according to the US government's numbers is set at a touch over $17000. In other words, following the roughly 1:1 ratio of income to PPP, someone living at the poverty line in the US still has more global purchasing power than the average person anywhere in Latin America. They also have over 15 times the global purchasing power of the average person in Africa. You can only claim that the US hasn't virtually eliminated poverty within its borders when compared to global standards if you then claim that the vast majority of the world lives completely in poverty. Kimball Kinnison
Princess_Tina posted:I am not claiming anything like that. I'm just asking you where there's a statement by any government official or expert on the subject saying that the U.S. has virtually eliminated poverty. Your earlier statement pretty much made it sound like you're saying that it's the official position of the U.S. that poverty in America has been eliminated.
Princess_Tina posted:The PPP doesn't really matter much in this instance. What difference does it make if someone who is "living at the poverty line in the US" has more global purchasing power than people in developing countries? The cost of living is way lower in those countries, but they have to meet expenses here in the U.S., not in the developing countries. I've met a lot of American and Canadian expats who can afford to live like royalty in Mexico on $400 a month or less, because of the lower cost of living there. But not everyone is a retiree who can simply pack up and move to Mexico. Constantly repeating "these people aren't really poor because if they went to a Third World country their money would go much farther" doesn't really seem like a substantial argument to me.
Princess_Tina posted:So, again, please tell me, is there any government official or someone who could be considered an expert, who has said that the U.S. has virtually eliminated poverty domestically? If you don't that's OK, we've already strayed pretty far from the thread topic; poverty in America really is a subject that could use a thread of its own.
Kimball_Kinnison posted: That difference in purchasing power parity is one of the major causes (if not the single largest cause) of illegal immigration. That's why someone is able to come to the US and send significant amounts of money back to their home country. It is a major motivator, and you are completely ignoring it.
Kimball_Kinnison posted:I haven't strayed from the topic at all. As I stated above, the fact that poverty (in comparison to global, as opposed to national, standards) is almost non-existent in the US is a key factor in illegal immigration. However, you are introducing a false standard here. It doesn't require a statement from any government official to prove my point. I gave you the cold, hard facts. Go look at the raw data for yourself, and you will see exactly what I'm pointing out to you. There is no need for any "official statements" when you can look to the raw data for all the evidence you need. Tell me, where is the data to back up all of your claims? Kimball Kinnison
Lowbacca_1977 posted: The Democrats and Republicans both, in general I think, view the poor in America as a group that should be given assistance in improving their condition. The parties have disagreements about how to do that, but I think the goal is the same.
Princess_Tina posted:So, again, please tell me, is there any government official or someone who could be considered an expert, who has said that the U.S. has virtually eliminated poverty domestically?
Kimball_Kinnison posted:but I am posting from my iPhone.
