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Topic:
Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Faces of Silas
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
7/18/07 8:02pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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There was no error in spelling. The reference was both pointed and deliberate. Nice catch, Lowbacca.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
7/18/07 8:11pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Kinda hard on female comics there, aren't you?
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
7/18/07 8:13pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Oh, that's just crass. I mean, what is this, the 4th grade?
E_S
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In this truth he knew himself to be.
From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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Master_SweetPea
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
7/18/07 8:40pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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once again E_S and I agree on something
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I don't like the donkeys and I don't like the Elephants http://www.lp.org "Some people never have anything except ideas Go Do it! Lucky Numbers 3, 11, 21, 31, 41, 43"
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Vezner
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
8/20/07 5:20am
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Oh the irony of it all...
"Sicko" has been banned in Cuba? How could that be?  
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McCain 2008  I support the troops that are fighting and dying for our Freedom! Christians have rights of expression too.  "The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing." --Edmund Burke
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Divia
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
8/20/07 9:18am
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Nice banner on the left of that page
War Crimes The Left's Campaign to Destroy Our Military and Lose the War on Terror
I want to use this... 
But its too sad so I'll do...
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Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be Evil.
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Vezner
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
8/20/07 5:45pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Kind of interesting that the mainstream media is reporting this, wouldn't you say? I wonder why that would be.
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McCain 2008 I support the troops that are fighting and dying for our Freedom! Christians have rights of expression too. "The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing." --Edmund Burke
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Fire_Ice_Death
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
8/20/07 7:41pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Because Townhall seems to be as bad as the Freepers?
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The Changing Face of America: What can brown do for you?
Gamertag: FIDo Almighty
Remember: Frank Miller hates you.
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Gonk
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
8/22/07 10:47am
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Lowbacca:
Just reading your posts mid-July --
I live in Canada. In fact, I live in generally the most economically depressed region, the Maritime provinces. I can say that your worries on wait times are not really all THAT founded.
Yes, there are wait times, but only on elected surgery. The fact of those wait times has more to do with the debt we are getting over paying than the fact that this is socialized health care. One could say that this would not be a problem if health care were privatized and the fortunes of the system were not tied into the fortunes of the government. This has a point, but clearly the system of privatized health care in the US is much worse. Canada's health care system will improve as the economic health of the government improves as it is doing: already the wait times are not as bad as they were in the mid-late 90s. We certainly do not have people dying for lack of proper medical care -- and even if we did it would be peanuts compared to those who die for the same reasons in the United States.
When I was a child, I got my head split open. This was somewhere around 1989/90. I got rushed to the hospital and there was not much of a wait time: because of my injury, I was prioritized. I was in and out in only a few hours with stiches in my head.
And once again, this is the most economically depressed region in Canada... well, unless you want to go to the far north.
So that said, Lobacca, I think you're just hurting yourself by not giving socialized medicine another look. Even the very wait times you fear only exist in Canada and the other countries that use it do not have those problems.
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severian28
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
8/28/07 3:52pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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The man is a gadfly. A provacative person on purpose. His loosey goosey delivery of hard facts is on purpose. He's not trying to personally win over his skeptics, and especially not his detractors and haters. He's leaving that up to the people who he gives a loud and effective voice to - half the country even in his most unpopular spans - whom his movies are really for. And he's telling the truth - make no bones about it. We all who share his p.o.v., mainly, believe what he speaks to be the truth, and mainly because we've always believed it. Thats why he's so pretentious to some people. Because he speaks in such a you-should-know-this-already-stupid way. He may not be telling you in the most truthful way but his overall points are either the common sense, real time truth or very heart-felt and preceint tidings - usually not very comfortable ones to face. But truthful.
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" Bring the sled " - Al Swearengen
" Dying all the time. Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind. Aint life unkind? " - The Rolling Stones
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
8/28/07 5:34pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Severian, how do you balance that out with factual inaccuracies? Its at best sloppy documentary making, and at worst lying.
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
8/28/07 5:53pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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severian28 posted:
The man is a gadfly. A provacative person on purpose. His loosey goosey delivery of hard facts is on purpose. He's not trying to personally win over his skeptics, and especially not his detractors and haters. He's leaving that up to the people who he gives a loud and effective voice to - half the country even in his most unpopular spans - whom his movies are really for. And he's telling the truth - make no bones about it. We all who share his p.o.v., mainly, believe what he speaks to be the truth, and mainly because we've always believed it. Thats why he's so pretentious to some people. Because he speaks in such a you-should-know-this-already-stupid way. He may not be telling you in the most truthful way but his overall points are either the common sense, real time truth or very heart-felt and preceint tidings - usually not very comfortable ones to face. But truthful.
The problem with what you say is that he is hardly truthful about and certainly harmful to any cause he picks up. This "we" that you speak of. Who are they exactly? The majority of American people? Polls would suggest that this isn't the case. This "truth" you speak of. What is it exactly? A political ideology that is at odds with America's founding principles?
Are these things worth debating? Absolutely. Are there potential benefits to socialized medicince, for example? Certainly! Are there costs? You bet. Do the benefits outweigh the costs? Well...see...that little detail, Professor Moore tends not to worry about. In that respect, he really does speak like your average American.
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severian28
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
8/28/07 8:14pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
Severian, how do you balance that out with factual inaccuracies? Its at best sloppy documentary making, and at worst lying.
Are the factual inaccuracies you speak off getting in the way of the truth of what happened to GM? Or that the War In Iraq was indeed a tremendous blunder? Or that its a joke that were even having a debate over whether every single one of us should have free health care? - which is the main point of Sicko, and not that the system we have sucks - which it does. I guess I dont really consider him an artist Lowbacca, which allows me to be a little less critical in that respect. He's selling a vision, its not a bad one by any means, I personally believe theres much more good in it than not, and I completely understand that he's manipulative. What-the Corporate Media isnt? Man, you wanna talk about factual innaccuracies?
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" Bring the sled " - Al Swearengen
" Dying all the time. Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind. Aint life unkind? " - The Rolling Stones
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
8/28/07 8:57pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Well yes, yes they are. He uses numerous incorrect claims. For example, as I recall, when he's showing the recruiters he talks about them going to a second mall where there would be either more minorities or more poor (its been a while since I watched it, so I can't recall) when they in fact were going to a mall where, based on the area it was in, would be the opposite. It incorrectly portrays that the military was targetting a speicific group.
Not to mention that if Moore cared about the issues he was advocating, rather than about either making money or being sensational, he would realise that using so many smaller errors, as he does, shifts focus away from the main ideas his movies focus on because of how weak his style of arguement is.
Also, what free health care are you talking about? You do realise that free health care is a misnomer. Its taxpayer paid healthcare. And I think its a valid question of if thats a good idea.
Moore IS the corporate media, anyway.
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Darth Geist
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
8/29/07 12:18am
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Truth told in an untruthful way is no longer real truth, severian. It's like telling your parents you studied when you technically did, but only for a minute or two.
People like Michael Moore manipulate pieces of the truth to construct a false big picture, and that's the most effective way to deceive. And they leave out any truth that doesn't go along with the message they're selling — for example, he extolls the merits of the French health care system without mentioning that thousands of French citizens died in a heat wave just a few years ago because all their doctors were on government-mandated vacations.
And what Lowbacca said. Free health care doesn't exist. Socialized health care isn't free; it's just pre-paid, and it has its ups and downs just like any other system. Yeah, our current system has its problems, but it's baffling to see someone like Michael Moore stand up and say, "I know who can fix our health care system! The government!"
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Joe Biden posted:
What do you talk about when you have nothing to say?
What do you talk about when you cannot explain the last
eight years of failure? You talk about the other guy!
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