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Topic:
Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
8/29/07 3:29am
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Yes socialized health care has problems, but they are in no way comparable to those we have here.
On this MM has it right, and I don't blame him for not mentioning the downsides to socialized health care, the health care lobby does a fine job of doing that.
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
8/29/07 4:20am
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Espaldapalabras posted:
Yes socialized health care has problems, but they are in no way comparable to those we have here.
On this MM has it right, and I don't blame him for not mentioning the downsides to socialized health care, the health care lobby does a fine job of doing that.
Could you actually enumerate the costs and benefits of socialized health care? What measures are you using to define that it is better? Are you considering the impact on the economy as a cost?
I'm often amused by claims such as these. It really doesn't take that much effort to compare health care systems and evaluate trends. I watched Micheal Moore doing and interview and, when cornered, he acknowledged that quality and quantity of health care would go down (then he stuck in "for rich guys like me, but more people would get health care."). Ok.
Who are these people who don't have health care in the US? Why do people make claims, like our Canadian friend above, that suggest that thousands or tens of thousands of Americans are dying due to a lack of health care. Why does no one call BS on that? Why is it that the Michael Moores get to make all these blatantly false claims and consistently get away with it--win Oscars for best documentary even (Al Gore)?
The simple fact is that the analysis to see if this is a good idea isn't really being done. Our current socialized medical system (did you know that the US already has socialized medicine? I bet you didn't!) is on track to dwarf federal spending. Right now, Medicare alone is 11% of GDP. In an already stretched budget with record deficits that are only going to get worse as we spend more, where's the money going to come from? Do you really think that it's going to come from cutting other programs? Oh! I know! We'll just "tax the rich"--the same "rich" that already foot over 64% of the federal bill right now.
The dishonesty about health care--quality, quantity, and cost--is what makes these arguments in favor of it worthy of skepticism. I'd be happy to be convinced that this is the right course of action if we actually addressed these concerns as opposed to playing propaganda games--which is precisely what Michael Moore, et al does.
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
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Divia
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
8/29/07 11:15am
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
- Date Edited:
8/29/07 11:16am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Divia
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My brother doesnt have health insurance. I didn't have health insurance for the longest time. I have it now becuase of my job. One of my mother's procedures was not covered under her insurance so now its out of pocket. And that is just my family. I am sure there are other stories like these.
I'm sure if you ask around this MB long enough you will find people who don't have it. Plus, why do you think there are always benifits with people who have cancer or other big medical issues. It's because they can't pay for them.
I think our system is flawed. There must be a better way. What that is, I know not. But I know this one sucks.
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
8/29/07 11:51am
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Is health care a right?
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
8/29/07 11:54am
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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The pursuit of it is, I think.
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
8/29/07 1:43pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Are you characterizing the pursuit of health care as the pursuit of happiness? Interesting interpretation, but ok. So what right should the government ensure--the right to pursue health care or the right to health care itself?
I'm sorry that there are 40 million Americans without health care. But what I don't know is what that really means. Why don't they have health care? Is it because they choose not to have it? My brother doesn't have health care. He makes about $45k a year. He is one of the 40 million Americans without health care. He simply chooses not to buy it (despite my repeated protests).
One of my sisters and I are both under a government-run health care system--hers by her state (she's a teacher) and mine by the US Military. Normal managed care is horrible. Emergent care is fantastic.
Why do I bring this up? People love to roll out the anecdotal evidence when arguing for universal health care (Michael Moore is king of this) in order to show how big, bad corporate America/Hospitals are killing people or what-not. Then they scream their heads off demanding that the government fix it.
I agree that the right to pursue health care should not be infringed upon. The idea of taking that “right” and converting it into a provisional responsibility of the government is where I have a problem. What makes it the responsibility of the government to ensure that my brother has health care even though he demonstrably doesn’t want it?
See, the problem with this argument is that a lot of people supporting universal health care (Michael Moore included) are arguing from a position that it is patently obvious that the government should ensure that everyone has health care. Only problem with that is that it is not patently obvious and it certainly isn’t something laid out in our Constitution. So before we go off the deep end and start implementing policies for universal health care that are somewhere between anarchistic free-market hospitals and socialist government-controlled medical care, I think we should try having the debate as to whether or not the government should be providing this “right” or not.
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
8/29/07 1:52pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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I'd say that its both pursuit of happiness, and tied to life as well.
Its why I think the idea of government preventing people from getting health care to be horribly wrong.
However, ours doesn't. I've greater issue with areas where private health care has laws against it. I believe Canada is an example of that, but I'm not positive.
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
8/29/07 1:58pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Absolutely the government should not prevent people from getting health care! Are there governments that do this?
Lowbacca_1977 posted:
I've greater issue with areas where private health care has laws against it. I believe Canada is an example of that, but I'm not positive.
Laws against what? I'm not sure I'm following here Low.
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
8/29/07 2:55pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
- Date Edited:
8/29/07 2:58pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lowbacca_1977
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I was referring to stuff along the lines of this, where laws at least were in place on private health insurance, but subsequently overruled:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/06/09/newscoc-health050609.html
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
8/29/07 3:46pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Wow. Learn something new every day. I read the article and was struck by the idea that the government would actually go so far as to tell someone that they can't go the doctor of their choice if they're willing to pay for it. I knew that this was a possibility of such a health care system, but I confess that I hadn't researched the way Canada did business. I just accepted at face value the reports that Canada is the acme of universal health care.
I'll have to do a bit of reading up on this matter, but my initial reaction is something along the lines of "You've got to be kidding me! People here in the US think this is 'better' than what we have????"
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
8/29/07 3:51pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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That said, they get credit for overturning it.
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
8/29/07 6:28pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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They do, Low. That said, I was alarmed by some of the anecdotal reports in that story (A year-long wait for hip replacement? Really??!??) as well as some of the linked reports outlining the policies.
Makes me wonder how many of the people clamoring for universal health care know what they're getting into...
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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severian28
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
8/29/07 6:49pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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I think basically Moore ask a question of America in Sicko and that is if theyre willing to sacrifice their taxes towards a not-for-profit health system with a socialized prescription plan with much more attention towards preventitive medicines and therapies and that would be available to every single person in this country, with the richer among us paying for the poorer. He frames the question by basically asking us if we even like each other. For me personally this is valid because I feel the same exact way and long before I ever saw a Michael Moore doc, too. I believe that every person in this country should have health care with little to no questions asked. We have a moral obligation to each other and to every other citizen of this world on our soil whose countries we hegemonically move around in. If we're going to be that way the least we could do is be a healing power in our own country and in the world in a physical sense. And I understand the medical missionaries of the U.S. are unparralleled but theyre work is charity and it must no longer be framed as charity but instead normal for America.
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Divia
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
8/29/07 6:55pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Souderwan posted:
Is health care a right?
Nah, but its a helluva way to get rid of all those undesirables such as the poor and a good portion of those pesky minority races.
 
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
8/29/07 7:04pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Divia posted:
Souderwan posted:
Is health care a right?
Nah, but its a helluva way to get rid of all those undesirables such as the poor and a good portion of those pesky minority races.
Ok. I know you're being tongue in cheek, but I don't quite get it. 
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we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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