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Topic:
Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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anidanami124
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
8/30/07 5:15pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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severian28 posted:
I believe that every person in this country should have health care with little to no questions asked. We have a moral obligation to each other
have you ever heard of the words Job, work, and eraning your money and health care? No Well work is this place I go to Monday - Friday and sometimes on Saturday. I work 7 to 4 and make 8.25 any hour. I worked hard to get what is on my pay check not so lazy people who can't get off there butts and to get a job can have it. 
I do not have a moral obligation to help them out with anything. They on the other hand of the moral obligation to get off there butts and get a job and work so they can have that health care. I earned my right to have health care the day I got a job.
So ever one has health care guess who's going to be paying most of that people like me.
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Neo-Paladin
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
8/30/07 7:07pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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My Grandmother once gave me a historical perspective on this issue.* Back in the day, when the workers in the US would bargain for a raise, the employers started countering with an offer for heath care coverage. The workers accepted, and everyone was happy, the employers didn't have to pay for a raise, and the workers had one less thing to worry about. Workers salaries were low so doctors couldn't charge much, and while doctors didn't go hungry they generally didn't make that much on the average. Of course once the companies were paying the medical bills the doctors could charge more, and did. And did. And did. And do.
I've taken two things away from this perspective.
Firstly, this has become a terrible double edged sword, as medicine has become profitable intense research has made medicine more effective as the art improves, but at the same time pricing some people out of the art.
Secondly, I am troubled by the thought of applying the theory of supply and demand to a service as fundamentally necessary as medical attention. I mean, if you're told your life can be saved for a cool hundred you're going to scramble to pay it; if you're told your life can be saved for a cool grand you're going to scramble to pay it; if you're told your life can be saved for a cool ten grand you're going to scramble to pay it, and so on. If the majority will pay it, but a minority can't and I'm not sanguine with telling the minority they're just going to have to die, let alone suffer.
I know self employed small business owners who have a real problem finding coverage for their families, and even then can't get some things covered they really should have covered. I know someone who lives with 7 day long migraines because she can't drop the $100+ for the medication that her insurance won't cover. Yeah, I know anecdotally some people choose not to have insurance, but I personally have known more people who can't afford insurance or adequate coverage.
I for one, would prefer a model used in Scandinavian countries, where a baseline of care is provided by the government as administered at the local level, with the option to opt out of the government program and get private insurance. Satisfaction with this sort of system is incredibly high in these countries, and they seem to spend a lower percentage of their GDP than we do of ours. I recognize the comparisons aren't 1:1, but they seem similar enough to provide a fair comparison.
Further, I've always thought holding up anecdotes about the Canadian system was a bit of a straw man; it would be stupid to model our system off of an unpopular system. We should model after a system from a industrial nation that has wide popularity, is cost effective, effective at providing coverage, and does not undercut the profitability of the medical practice (I don't care so much about cutting into the bottom lines of the insurance companies, which are basically legal bookies if you think about it).
*Note, I've never researched the veracity of this account, but it's always made sense, and I like it. Besides who are you to question my grandmother?
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
8/30/07 9:11pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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anidanami124, in fairness, I highly doubt that your income would be high enough that you'd be facing an increase in taxes, at least income tax, for universal health care. It would be either higher incomes being taxed more, or other public services getting less money.
Though I agree that there' not an obligation, and if people wanted to, they could still donate to charity rather than the government doing it.
Neo-Paladin posted:
I've taken two things away from this perspective.
Firstly, this has become a terrible double edged sword, as medicine has become profitable intense research has made medicine more effective as the art improves, but at the same time pricing some people out of the art.
Secondly, I am troubled by the thought of applying the theory of supply and demand to a service as fundamentally necessary as medical attention. I mean, if you're told your life can be saved for a cool hundred you're going to scramble to pay it; if you're told your life can be saved for a cool grand you're going to scramble to pay it; if you're told your life can be saved for a cool ten grand you're going to scramble to pay it, and so on. If the majority will pay it, but a minority can't and I'm not sanguine with telling the minority they're just going to have to die, let alone suffer.
I know self employed small business owners who have a real problem finding coverage for their families, and even then can't get some things covered they really should have covered. I know someone who lives with 7 day long migraines because she can't drop the $100+ for the medication that her insurance won't cover. Yeah, I know anecdotally some people choose not to have insurance, but I personally have known more people who can't afford insurance or adequate coverage.
On supply and demand, you forgot one thing.... if the profits increase, then its greater incentive for people to go into medicine, and that will increase supply and lower costs again.
Though yes, self employed business owners have it tricky... I'm on health care paid for by my parents and my dad is a small business owner. Thus far, we've not had a problem with it, but I know we have a fairly high deductible.
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Neo-Paladin
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
8/30/07 9:41pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
On supply and demand, you forgot one thing.... if the profits increase, then its greater incentive for people to go into medicine, and that will increase supply and lower costs again.
In theory this is correct.
But in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. 
It seems to me we obviously jumped those tracks when people started going to India to find lower cost medical procedures (notably, done as well and as advanced as in America). The disconnect seems to be that there are enough people who will pay a high enough price to keep medicine profitable for everyone practicing and well beyond the price point of a not insignificant portion of society. The demand is growing just as fast as the supply, if not faster, particularly with the baby boom generation aging.
Do you see costs coming down?
Also, in an emergency the patient is a captive audience. Supply is them, demand is you. I was in the hospital for a fall last January, spent a night in the ICU away from home. I was charged $45 for two regular strength Tylenol. My insurance eventually covered it, but the point being, I couldn't exactly shop around for a hospital with a more reasonable charge.
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Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.
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severian28
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
8/30/07 10:08pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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anidanami124 posted:
severian28 posted:
I believe that every person in this country should have health care with little to no questions asked. We have a moral obligation to each other
have you ever heard of the words Job, work, and eraning your money and health care? No Well work is this place I go to Monday - Friday and sometimes on Saturday. I work 7 to 4 and make 8.25 any hour. I worked hard to get what is on my pay check not so lazy people who can't get off there butts and to get a job can have it.
I do not have a moral obligation to help them out with anything. They on the other hand of the moral obligation to get off there butts and get a job and work so they can have that health care. I earned my right to have health care the day I got a job.
So ever one has health care guess who's going to be paying most of that people like me.
Thats fine and you have conviction so it would be ridiculous for me to say that your wrong because its the truth for you. I just happen to feel the complete opposite.
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" Dying all the time. Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind. Aint life unkind? " - The Rolling Stones
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Darth Geist
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
8/30/07 10:46pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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There are things more vital than health care; things like food, and shelter, and work. We don't depend on the government to give us those; we're perfectly capable of going out and geting them for ourselves. Why should health care be different?
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Joe Biden posted:
What do you talk about when you have nothing to say?
What do you talk about when you cannot explain the last
eight years of failure? You talk about the other guy!
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severian28
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
8/30/07 10:52pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Some people - for a variety of legitamite reasons - are not perfectly capable of having any of those things without help. Its important to me that theyre o.k..
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" Bring the sled " - Al Swearengen
" Dying all the time. Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind. Aint life unkind? " - The Rolling Stones
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
8/30/07 11:34pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Severian, no one is saying you CAN'T help those people. Just that you can't force others to help those people.
You can help those people however you'd like, be it giving money directly, or organising charities, or trying to find ways for them to get medical care cheaper.
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severian28
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
8/31/07 7:14am
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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If H.R. 676 passed tomrrow Id be just as happy as you are that its not going to pass tomorrow. Just becuase Id defend it doesnt mean im " forcing " anyone into anything.
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" Dying all the time. Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind. Aint life unkind? " - The Rolling Stones
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
8/31/07 11:52am
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Neo-Paladin, you conveniently neglected to mention the cost driver for medical services. You make it seem as if the mean, bad doctors are out there jacking up prices for medical care simply because they can. The facts are very different. Numerous doctors across the nation are leaving their areas to go to other states or are leaving the practice altogether. Why is that? Because they can screw so many people over with high prices that people have to pay no matter what because the medical services are a monopoly?
This idea that medical prices are astronomical simply because they can be simply isn't supported by the facts. And what, pray tell, is the problem with doctors wanting to make a living and make a profit? Why are they bad people? Do you know how much work it takes to become a doctor? Doctors and lawyers spend an inordinate amount of time preparing to do their profession. They have astronomical bills to pay. They provide an invaluable service to our society.
On the subject of health insurance, I get really weary of people talking about "not being able to afford it". Really? Is that really true? Yes, there are those who live from paycheck to paycheck and can barely afford a roof over their heads, food on their tables, and clothes on their backs. But are those the majority of people who we are talking about? It's about priorities. If you own a car, live in an apartment, have a telephone, a TV (with cable), and run the AC all the time, you can probably afford health insurance. For every anecdotal piece of "evidence" someone dishes out to me about how they "can't find insurance", I can usually point to at least one or two people that I know personally who simply choose not to spend the money (consciously or otherwise) to get their own. You'll forgive me if I don't want the government to point a gun to my head and tell me that I better cough up my money to ensure that those people are insured anyway.
And as for who will pay, simply because I might not see an increase in taxes now (though I actually would if most of these plans were to be put in place), it certainly doesn't mean I won't in the near future and it doesn't make the concept fair. The top 20% of the US already pay 80% of the taxes. How much more should they pay?
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
8/31/07 12:41pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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As a brief detour back to Moore, the movie Manufacturing Dissent was released today.
For those who are unfamiliar with the premise, 2 filmmakers follow Moore around for 9 months trying to get an interview with him- Roger and Me style- while Moore dodges their questions.
One scene that is supposed to stand out is when a Moore employee complains to that Moore himself stays at the finest hotels, while he puts his crew up in what is described as "fleabags."
The reviews seem to all revolve around the fact that this film doesn't contain anything new, but that it's a curiosity to watch Moore's own tactics being used against him.
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anidanami124
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
8/31/07 2:02pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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severian28 posted:
Some people - for a variety of legitamite reasons - are not perfectly capable of having any of those things without help. Its important to me that theyre o.k..
Then they have to go find that help. We can't always just drop ever thing we are doing to help others. Which you also have to ask do they even want your help? Do they even want the goverment to help them.
There are people out there that don't want hand outs at all they just want a job and to earn there keep. Life sucks sometimes and is hard but leading people by the hand ever where they go at the end of the day will not help them, help themselves.
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Dark Lords of the JCC
My Heros of Music
Epica 1. Simone Simons 2. Mark Jansen 3. Yves Huts 4. Coen Janssen
5. Ad Sluijter 6. Jeroen Simons
1)ROTS2)AOTC 3)TESB 4)TPM 5)ANH 6)ROTJ
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
8/31/07 3:59pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Mr44 posted:
As a brief detour back to Moore, the movie Manufacturing Dissent was released today.
For those who are unfamiliar with the premise, 2 filmmakers follow Moore around for 9 months trying to get an interview with him- Roger and Me style- while Moore dodges their questions.
One scene that is supposed to stand out is when a Moore employee complains to that Moore himself stays at the finest hotels, while he puts his crew up in what is described as "fleabags."
The reviews seem to all revolve around the fact that this film doesn't contain anything new, but that it's a curiosity to watch Moore's own tactics being used against him.
Well, following Moore around to no end has already been done. Michael Moore Hates America.
(Which, I'll add, is really good at looking at bias within documentaries and not as vitrolic as the title sounds)
The bigger thing with Manufacturing Dissent is the allegation that Moore actually did talk to Roger. That and that these filmmakers started off as fans of Moore when they set out to do this documentary.
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Lane_Winree
Registered:
Mar '06
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Date Posted:
9/3/07 6:05pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Ah, yes, I read about that film on CNN.com a few months ago.
I imagine that if they're using Moore's tactics, the truth of the matter has been manipulated, distorted, and otherwise lost. I won't dispute the hilarious irony of the situation, though.
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anidanami124
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
9/3/07 7:05pm
Subject:
RE: Michael Moore. Fact or Fiction?
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Lane_Winree posted:
Ah, yes, I read about that film on CNN.com a few months ago.
I imagine that if they're using Moore's tactics, the truth of the matter has been manipulated, distorted, and otherwise lost. I won't dispute the hilarious irony of the situation, though.
Maybe it was Moore who made a film about himself?  
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5. Ad Sluijter 6. Jeroen Simons
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