| Author |
Topic:
Conspiracy Theories
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SaberGiiett7
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
6/2/07 9:01pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
There are some that theorise everything. That doesn't therefore give it any evidence or greater degree of truth by that nature alone though. I'd also say that I think that is an inaccurate view of Vietnam, as I don't recall ever hearing evidence that Vietnam was intentionally run as it was to lead to more Americans being killed.
Make an arguement for part of the claims of the 9/11 gov't conspiracy as to why that was a gov't conspiracy and not what it is most commonly viewed to be, with links to and quotes from primary sources and not links to hour long documentaries, and then we can actually debate the claims.
I for one feel the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a monumental sham and pretext for war.
<[-]> Saber
-----signature-----
Slave to my R Complex.
"It's all right. It's OK. There's something to live for! Jesus told me so!"
"Right or wrong, the main criterion is what you do and not what you say."
The American Revolution has been betrayed.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
6/3/07 1:45am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Creating an event to justify the war isn't the same as doing things simply so more American soldiers die, though.
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Blue_Jedi33
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
6/3/07 7:14am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Based on some of the posts, some Americans seem to have a strange disease I will call it patrioticitiss, it is a desease that effects the mind. The most common symptoms of this illness is that the person thinks "my country can do no wrong", "my country has never done anything wrong", "my country is the greatest in the world, so it can do whatever it wants" and so "we're the most powerfull nation in the world so we can do whatever we want", "Our President must be fully supported no matter what", "Our Government would never harm it's own citizens"
Are you suffering from this Illiness?
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
6/3/07 7:54am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Blue_Jedi33 posted:
Based on some of the posts, some Americans seem to have a strange disease I will call it patrioticitiss, it is a desease that effects the mind. The most common symptoms of this illness is that the person thinks "my country can do no wrong", "my country has never done anything wrong", "my country is the greatest in the world, so it can do whatever it wants" and so "we're the most powerfull nation in the world so we can do whatever we want", "Our President must be fully supported no matter what", "Our Government would never harm it's own citizens"
Are you suffering from this Illiness?
Based on some of the posts, some users seem to have a strange disease I will call it paranoia, it is a desease that effects the mind. The most common symptoms of this illness is that the person thinks "my country is out to get me", "my country can't tell the truth", "my country is the greatest threat in the world" and so "we're the most powerful nation in the world so we obviously can't be trusted", "Our President is trying to fool everyone", "Our Government would never tell the truth about anything" without basing those thoughts in any hard evidence.
Are you suffering from this Illness?
You see, two can play that game. Between the two illnesses, only one of them is actually a clinical disorder that can actually be diagnosed. Here's a hint: it's not the one you think I have.
So, are you going to provide any actual evidence of your claims, or are you just going to continue with your diarrhea of the mouth and constipation of the brain?
Kimball Kinnison
-----signature-----
You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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Blue_Jedi33
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
6/3/07 8:35am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
- Date Edited:
6/3/07 8:36am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Blue_Jedi33
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KK
You know what, a German Citizen in about 1940 that would have had some concern about what his government was doing, and was thinking what you posted, would not be suffering from paranoia, now would he? 
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
6/3/07 9:10am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Blue_Jedi33 posted:
KK
You know what, a German Citizen in about 1940 that would have had some concern about what his government was doing, and was thinking what you posted, would not be suffering from paranoia, now would he?
I'm sorry, but you just Godwined yourself. Thank you for playing, but you will need to insert more quarters to continue.
As Henry Kissinger once said, even paranoids have enemies. However, just because a paranoid person is occasionally right about something doesn't meant that you are justified in constant paranoia.
You aren't offering anything except paranoia. You haven't given any verifiable evidence at all. You need to supply the evidence if you want to convince anyone that you aren't just paranoid and delusional.
Kimball Kinnison
-----signature-----
You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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Blue_Jedi33
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
6/3/07 12:17pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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KK
From the link you posted from Wikpedia "However Godwin's Law can itself also be abused as a distraction or diversion that fallaciously miscasts an opponents arguement"
Applying or invoking Godwin's Law seems to be a favorite for people who like to ignore history and how we can learn from it, thus excluding it from debate.
Some call that weak and an emotional way to debate, I call it learning from past mistakes that humanity has made.
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Master-FatBurt
Registered:
Jul '03
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Date Posted:
6/3/07 12:41pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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HUGE lol at invoking Godwins law.
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rules are meant to be broken
All Bluebirds are Blue
COME ON BARRA!!
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
6/3/07 12:54pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
- Date Edited:
6/3/07 12:57pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
J-Rod
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Here's a fun conspiracy: I believe that the "Global Warming" fear mongering is more about anti-capitalism than about a real emergency.
Check this out.
Somewhere along the way, I stopped believing that a scientific consensus exists on climate change. Certainly there is no consensus at the very top echelons of scientists -- the ranks from which I have been drawing my subjects -- and certainly there is no consensus among astrophysicists and other solar scientists, several of whom I have profiled. If anything, the majority view among these subsets of the scientific community may run in the opposite direction. Not only do most of my interviewees either discount or disparage the conventional wisdom as represented by the IPCC, many say their peers generally consider it to have little or no credibility. In one case, a top scientist told me that, to his knowledge, no respected scientist in his field accepts the IPCC position.
Why do I believe it's a false "truth"? For one, this is far from the first article I've read where a scientist has been credited with supporting the global warming theory yet gave interviews saying that he doesn't support the belief. Why would they lie?
"Only an insignificant fraction of scientists deny the global warming crisis. The time for debate is over. The science is settled."
So said Al Gore ... in 1992. Amazingly, he made his claims despite much evidence of their falsity. A Gallup poll at the time reported that 53% of scientists actively involved in global climate research did not believe global warming had occurred; 30% weren't sure; and only 17% believed global warming had begun. Even a Greenpeace poll showed 47% of climatologists didn't think a runaway greenhouse effect was imminent; only 36% thought it possible and a mere 13% thought it probable.
Why would Al Gore lie? Probably for votes or to simply be involved in a political movement. Perhaps for money.
Dunno.
While I certainly understand that many top scientists are worried about human causes of climate change, I don't seem to find that it is an accepted belief. Yet we are told it is by The U.N., WHO, ELF, Greenpeace, and any number of other "environmental" groups. Why would they lie?
For socialism. Or communism. They seem to use any method they can to hurt capitalism and disguise it as "for the common good."
But at any rate, that's my conspiracy theory. Please read my link and then call me goofy! 
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God Bless George Bush God Bless Barack Obama Darth_wanderguard :"Maybe you're not quite as crazy as people say you are"
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
6/3/07 1:26pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Blue_Jedi33 posted:
Based on some of the posts, some Americans seem to have a strange disease I will call it patrioticitiss, it is a desease that effects the mind. The most common symptoms of this illness is that the person thinks "my country can do no wrong", "my country has never done anything wrong", "my country is the greatest in the world, so it can do whatever it wants" and so "we're the most powerfull nation in the world so we can do whatever we want", "Our President must be fully supported no matter what", "Our Government would never harm it's own citizens"
Are you suffering from this Illiness?
Its called between the evidence that this was done specifically by the people who hijacked the planes and crashed them, and that I think the government is inept, I don't think they could've done this.
You clearly believe that the Bush administration is FAR more capable, organised, and efficient that I do.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
6/3/07 1:38pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Blue_Jedi33 posted:
KK
From the link you posted from Wikpedia "However Godwin's Law can itself also be abused as a distraction or diversion that fallaciously miscasts an opponents arguement"
Applying or invoking Godwin's Law seems to be a favorite for people who like to ignore history and how we can learn from it, thus excluding it from debate.
Some call that weak and an emotional way to debate, I call it learning from past mistakes that humanity has made.
Ok, I guess it's time for a reading lesson.
First of all, why didn't you give the full quote?However, Godwin's Law can itself also be abused, as a distraction or diversion, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate. Of course, I could also ask why you bothered to retype the quote rather than just cut and paste it (as is evident from your typing of "arguement" when it is spelled correctly on that page), but that's a side point.
Was I miscasting your point as hyperbole? I don't think so. You specifically took an extreme situation (one that is often used as a fallacious example in such discussions) and treated it as if it applies to this discussion. That is hyperbole.
I've noticed that you don't really read my posts, and you certainly don't respond to their main points. For example, when I posted for the second time about the fact that I have a very personal reason to want to bring the people behind 9/11 (whoever they are) to justice, you completely ignored it. I pointed out in detail what was wrong with your "arguments" (they are really just assertions), because you aren't providing the logical chain between facts and conclusions, and you ignored it.
Similarly, when I pointed out your invocation of Godwin's Law, I went on to explain how your post was utterly irrelevant. I quote:Kimball_Kinnison posted:
As Henry Kissinger once said, even paranoids have enemies. However, just because a paranoid person is occasionally right about something doesn't meant that you are justified in constant paranoia.
You aren't offering anything except paranoia. You haven't given any verifiable evidence at all. You need to supply the evidence if you want to convince anyone that you aren't just paranoid and delusional.
Just based on the law of averages, conspiracy theorists with wild theories will be right every once in a while. Even if it's (for the sake of argument) 5% of the time, that still says that they are wrong 95% of the time. Does a 5% success rate warrant a 100% paranoia rate? Not in the slightest.
If you want to convince anyone that you aren't paranoid, don't make wild comparisons to Nazi Germany. Make a logical argument, beginning with verifiable facts and demonstrating the entire logical chain between the facts and the conclusion.
You haven't done that. All you've done is post your conclusions and refused to present any verifiable evidence, let alone the logical chain to arrive at the conclusions.
Kimball Kinnison
-----signature-----
You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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Fire_Ice_Death
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
6/3/07 2:03pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
- Date Edited:
6/3/07 2:39pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Fire_Ice_Death
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Blue_Jedi33 posted:
KK
From the link you posted from Wikpedia "However Godwin's Law can itself also be abused as a distraction or diversion that fallaciously miscasts an opponents arguement"
Applying or invoking Godwin's Law seems to be a favorite for people who like to ignore history and how we can learn from it, thus excluding it from debate.
Some call that weak and an emotional way to debate, I call it learning from past mistakes that humanity has made.
There's a difference between learning from history and making a complete fool out of yourself should you use it. Let's say you're using a hammer and you whack your thumb while you try to hit the nail. Learning from that would mean the next time you use a hammer you would keep your thumb away from the hammer unless it's to hold the nail you're intending to hammer in. What you're doing (from what I've read) is using the hammer to prove why you shouldn't use it to begin with saying that, "I was hurt once I'll get hurt again."
You obviously haven't learned anything from history and are just trying to use it to illustrate a point (a bad one at that). So yes, your points are weak and emotional. That's not necessarily a bad thing--I myself argue from what I feel to be right and just. The difference between my points and yours is that I know when mine aren't worth standing on and instead bail out. You...well, you follow that ship all the way to the bottom of the ocean.
I hate when people try to use history to justify their insanity.
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Humor is my shield. Sarcasm my sword.
The Changing Face of America: What can brown do for you?
Gamertag: FIDo Almighty
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
6/3/07 4:42pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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freaking godwin's law gestapo
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chibiangi
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
6/3/07 10:48pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Are the 9/11 Bush engineered it all conspiracies being seriously debated here? Because, you have to be a major retard to believe any of that crap. Work for the government for like a day and you will realize there is NO WAY something of that magnitude could have been orchestrated by the government, nevermind chimpbush.
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mujaki na kao de boku ni hohoemu
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HawkNC
Title: FanForce RSA
Oceania
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
6/4/07 1:12am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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J-Rod: I won't debate the science here, because we have a perfectly good existing thread for that. But this isn't the first time I've heard the anti-capitalist/US/progressive argument about why global warming is such a big issue. While I have no doubt there are your garden-variety socialists and anarchists that welcome AGW with open arms and herald it as justice for our capitalist society (that's pretty much what I see on posters around uni, anyway), I don't believe there is some grand conspiracy by the fringe left in that way. Why? Because much like the Bush-Iraq theory, if it's true then they've failed utterly. The proposed solutions to global warming involve carbon trading, green business enterprises, promotion of cleaner technology...all very capitalist and technological responses to the problem. If they did indeed just fabricate it all (which, given the evidence I've looked at personally, seems unlikely at this stage) then we've solved a problem that doesn't exist with methods they didn't want us to use.
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Use dp/dt
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Come now, do you really expect me to do coordinate substitution in my head while strapped to a centrifuge?
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