| Author |
Topic:
Conspiracy Theories
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Fire_Ice_Death
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
6/17/07 8:20am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Blue_Jedi33 posted:
FID
Now who brought in the Nazi's and did the Godwin thing 
Not that mind at all though. 
There was a movie on the internet that made a very strong case for it being a black ops group within the CIA. After JFK stopped operations Northwoods and started to cut funding and close bases of the CIA, they didn't like it.
I was mocking you. In case you couldn't tell.
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The Changing Face of America: What can brown do for you?
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
6/17/07 9:40am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Blue_Jedi33 posted:
KK
But you know what, some may feel restricted by that, you may have noticed I am not one of them, just because somebody makes a rule for debate in 1990, doesn't mean it's correct, it is only correct to those who want to use it. 
And actually if you look up Godwin's law it says only "Nazi's & Hitler" references invoke it, and since I only said German Citizens, clearly, technically speaking it was FID who used it first in this thread 
I will be carefull from now on, to never to use the words "Nazi" or "Hitler" in the Senate so as not to upset people like yourself.
Just so I can stay in character as someone who quibbles over minutae, you really need to review your English vocabulary, not to mention what you actually said.
You can make a reference to Nazis or Hitler without using those specific words. A reference is something that refers to something else. It can be explicit (invoking the specific terms or concepts) or implicit (merely implying the terms or concepts). When you said:Blue_Jedi33 posted:
KK
You know what, a German Citizen in about 1940 that would have had some concern about what his government was doing, and was thinking what you posted, would not be suffering from paranoia, now would he? 
That was an explicit reference to the German government in 1940, a government run by the Nazi party, with Hitler at its head. At the very least, that was an implicit reference to Hitler and Nazis, although most people would call it an explicit reference (as you gave enough historical detail so as to make your reference unambiguous).
Additionally, you continue to misunderstand Godwin's Law. It is merely a statement of probability. It is the corollaries to Godwin's Law that indicate that you lost the debate, not Godwin's Law itself. If anything, your actions aid in proving Godwin's law.
I hate to rub it in, but you should just give up now. It will be far less painful in the long run (although it won't be half as entertaining).  
Kimball Kinnison
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You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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Blue_Jedi33
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
6/17/07 3:54pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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KK
Oh so now we can't even comment on ANY German history that effected WW2 from 1933-1945? 
Got to love YOUR rules. 
In other news, I was reading today that global warming might be caused by our solar system current place in the galaxy, in which case, there is nothing we can do about that.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
6/17/07 5:23pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Blue_Jedi33 posted:
KK
Oh so now we can't even comment on ANY German history that effected WW2 from 1933-1945?
Got to love YOUR rules.
First of all, they aren't my rules. They are simply a set of observations of online behavior that have so far been shown to hold up. After all, it's not called "Kinnison's Law", is it?
Second, Godwin's Law specifically does not apply to valid, detailed comparisons to Nazi Germany on topics such as genocide or when actually discussing WWII. It does apply to the off-the-cuff "that's as bad as Hitler" or "You're no better than Nazis" comments. Your comment was more in the latter category than the former.
Kimball Kinnison
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You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
6/17/07 5:34pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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KK, Blue_Jedi and Godwin's Law were never designed to see eye-to-eye. Believe me, I know.
E_S
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In this truth he knew himself to be.
From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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Master_SweetPea
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
6/22/07 8:34am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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I think 9/11 was planned by the companies that make flags and magnetic ribbons..they are the ones that have profited the most from it.
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I don't like the donkeys and I don't like the Elephants http://www.lp.org "Some people never have anything except ideas Go Do it! Lucky Numbers 3, 11, 21, 31, 41, 43"
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Hammurabi
Registered:
Jan '07
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Date Posted:
6/22/07 9:31am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Master_SweetPea posted:
I think 9/11 was planned by the companies that make flags and magnetic ribbons..they are the ones that have profited the most from it.
Are you suggesting that the Chinese planned 9/11?
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and i know no one can sing the blues like blind willie mctell
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
6/24/07 8:35am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
- Date Edited:
6/24/07 9:25am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
DarthBoba
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Obviously.
You know what else is in on 9/11? Airplanes crashing into buildings.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=4 ]
You mean, the airplanes have actual mass & kinetic energy to them?
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EnforcerSG
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
6/24/07 9:12am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Here is a question; can anyone name a case where a conspiracy theory has turned out to be true? More brownie points for the bigger and more impact the event that the conspiracy was about had.
I said before that speculation is not evidence. I think I need to expand that. Facts that would be otherwise unrelated except for speculation is not evidence. Whatever a person is speculating about needs to have its own evidence for the entire theory to be given any weight.
Think of it like this; think of all the statistics you have heard that 'prove' anything. Those statistics can be linked, bent and manipulated to suit anyones needs. How are most conspiracy theories any different? You take a couple of 'facts', word them to suit your needs. You ignore or you honestly don't know a lot of the relevant information to fully understand those facts, and link several of them together and add a speculative conclusion. I really think that nearly all conspiracy theories out there are pure speculation and people wanting to believe.
My conspiracy theory is that everyone (except for me) who has a conspiracy theory on 9/11 was in on it and they are just trying to hide their shame...
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If you don't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say.
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I don't know: I would tell you if I did!
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
6/24/07 6:28pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Dreyfus Affair
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EnforcerSG
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
6/24/07 6:59pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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A small conspiracy (compared to some of the big ones that are thrown around here), and a sloppy one (which oddly enough is why it happened and why it eventually came out). And there were people who were theorizing and eventually discovering that the French government was covering something up. I'll give you that one.
Any more? Anything bigger than an officer getting screwed over and a cover up because of sloppy PR?
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If you don't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say.
God answers all prayers.
Sometimes the answer is no.
I don't know: I would tell you if I did!
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Jediflyer
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
6/24/07 7:12pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Would the Gulf of Tonkin count?
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EnforcerSG
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
6/24/07 9:46pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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I am not sure; were there people coming up with theories about what happened, some of them crazy but one of them right? Or was there only a conspiracy but no conspiracy theories?
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Sometimes the answer is no.
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Darth Geist
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
7/12/07 12:44am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Oh, jeez, Go-Mer. Loose Change? Don't tell me you actually bought into that nonsense. Even the filmmakers admitted it was bull. Repeatedly. Their latest admission was in December of 2006, and it's right here, on video.
"We made that film essentially as a bunch of kids," said director Dylan Avery. "That’s the reality of the situation; we were a bunch of kids tackling a subject far beyond the scope of any one documentary. I would be the first to admit that our film definitely contained errors, it still does contain some dubious claims, and it does come to some conclusions that are not 100% backed up by the facts…"
The problem with all the self-proclaimed "truthers" out there is that they don't really want truth. They want to be right. And they ignore everything that makes them wrong. They ignore the scores of DOCUMENTED eyewitnesses to the Pentagon plane crash. They ignore the fact that WTC 7 was torn apart by tons upon tons of falling rubble and then set on fire. They have no idea what a controlled demolition is, or how obviously placed all the explosives have to be — everyone inside the building would have seen them. They ignore the question of how hundreds, thousands of conspirators all vanished without a trace, not one of them saying a word for the last six years.
They pretend that there's no such thing as an expert. (How could there be, when all the "experts" disagree with them?) They pretend that unverifiable thirdhand accounts are as good as real evidence, that any non-establishment source is credible, that it doesn't matter how much you know or don't know, that real truth comes from the gut. They pretend to promote critical thinking, but end up promoting exactly the opposite.
And — come on — citing YouTube as a source of evidence? When it comes to 9/11, YouTube is a place where morons regurgitate what they were told by other morons. Example:
"they might be the most powerful or rich or wat ever the fact is that they wer running out of oil and the irak has tonnes of oil. But they wouldnt let the amercians get it so that dipshit present bush got binlanan to bomb the world tarde center so he had a excuse to go to war with the irakes and mine the oil out. and saddam didnt have any womd" - ciaran192, foremost expert on the World Tarde Center
Truthers cite Project for a New American Century as if they've read it. It's freely available, but most of them haven't bothered. It has nothing to do with 9/11. The line about a "new Pearl Harbor" is one throwaway line taken completely out of context by Loose Change, and by those who regurgitate Loose Change.
Worse, too many of the people who question everything the establishment does, and consider themselves free thinkers for doing so, take films like this at face value, blindly accepting even the most contradictory claims. They equate accusations with evidence, happily swallow fragments of hearsay, and shut out anyone who doesn't tell them what they want to hear, no matter their credentials or their own lack thereof.
It's fantasy. And it's an attractive fantasy. After all, once you "know" about the Impossibly Vast Conspiracy, you're not just Joe Schmoe anymore, you're a heroic warrior, fighting for truth against the ultimate evil — usually from the safety of your own desk; screw all that marching in the streets or taking personal risks. And anyone who thinks they really are taking a risk has even less of a grip on reality.
Mind you, I'm no fan at all of Bush — you can check my post history if you want. But there are all kinds of legitimate grievances against him, and all this paranoid nonsense just distracts from the real issues.
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When I was in my early twenties, I was complaining on the Internet about George Lucas.
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Blue_Jedi33
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
7/12/07 8:51am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
- Date Edited:
7/12/07 9:39am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Blue_Jedi33
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Darth Geist
I know what you are saying, for example some of the CT truthers believe that were no planes that day, just holograms. How crazy is that!
What I focus on is that were 3 buildings the folded neatly into there own footprint that day. Even the tops of WTC 1 & 2 some how severed themselves from the rest of the building and blew up before they even hit the bottom.
The fires were not as bad as some might have thought, there is a radio transmission from a fire chief saying they only had 2 isolated pockets of fire that they would be able to knock down with only 2 fire hose lines. Then there is the video of that lady that was standing IN the wreckage zone waving she wasn't being burnt to death. I talked to a local fireman and he told me black smoke like at the WTC means the fire is starved for air and not that hot, actually going out. And yet we are led to beleive that construction grade steel that was retested by UL as good, and melts at 2800 F melted 8" thick steel core beams, jet fuel at it's best can only go to 1520 F. which mean it can't melt steel. Sure it would warm it up, but even if the steel weakened to that point it would bend, and the top would have fallen over. Eight inch steel beams can't telescope into themselves, that goes againt physics.
Yet they found molten metal in the basement. The found concrete and steel metorites fused together in some strange way. Dust smothers fires and they had these hot spots weeks later, still.
So the question I still can't answer is how it reached 2800 F in the basement of the WTC to cause molten metal out of eight inch steel beams. Can you?
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