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Topic:
Conspiracy Theories
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
7/15/07 6:35am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Blue_Jedi, the issue is that the conspiracy theorists regarding 9/11 shift the focus. The simple question that needs to be answered is, why is it more likely that a massive government conspiracy took the buildings down when we have a present theory to explain what happened that is relatively sound as is. For example, if a key element is that it couldn't have collapsed because "steel doesn't melt" then how does one explain that a fire from a truck crash in San Francisco led to a steel reinforced bridge collapsing, even though the fire would never be hot enough to melt steel?
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Master_SweetPea
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
7/15/07 7:25am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
...then how does one explain that a fire from a truck crash in San Francisco led to a steel reinforced bridge collapsing, even though the fire would never be hot enough to melt steel?
Bombs were planted inside the overpass by the army corps of engineeres so that when the saucer people invade, we could stop the evacuation of San Francisco, so they would all die, because Bush doesn't care about Gay people.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
7/15/07 7:29am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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SweetPea, you want to edit a Kennedy assassination or Iraq reference in there so you cover all the bases?
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Blue_Jedi33
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
7/15/07 5:44pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Ok I think a star wars quote is needed at this point, "Laugh it up fuzzball."
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Master_SweetPea
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
7/15/07 8:04pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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How about Roswell, as it turns out there WAS a conspiracy to cover up, a secret.
Only it was a secret Early Detection system to stop Russian Missiles not a crashed alien space craft.
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I don't like the donkeys and I don't like the Elephants http://www.lp.org "Some people never have anything except ideas Go Do it! Lucky Numbers 3, 11, 21, 31, 41, 43"
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Darth Geist
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
7/28/07 11:28pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Rogue_Follower covered most of it, Blue_Jedi, but let me add that black smoke doesn't necessarily mean a dying fire; it has more to do with what's being burned.
Remember, the Kuwait oil fires were also black — here's a picture — and those fires burned for days.
It's a common habit of conspiracy theorists to hop all over the map, to fire off one indefensible point after another until they find one they can get behind, and then abandon that one as soon as it starts to crumble.
"WTC7 was two blocks away, and wasn't hit by anything!"
"No, it was across the street from the North Tower. Look at this map. Look at this picture."
"Well, but...black smoke means a weak fire!"
"No, it can just as likely appear in a roaring fire. Here, look at these pictures."
"Well, but...fire can't melt steel!"
"Yes it can. Look at this bridge in Oakland. Look at this feudal Japanese sword."
And so on.
If they were really interested in the truth, they'd stop "asking questions" long enough to listen to the answers. And if their theories had any basis in reality, they'd be standing by their points instead of abandoning them for new ones every couple of months.
Again, they don't want the truth. Not really. They want to be right. Reality be damned; they want to be right.
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Joe Biden posted:
What do you talk about when you have nothing to say?
What do you talk about when you cannot explain the last
eight years of failure? You talk about the other guy!
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Blue_Jedi33
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
8/4/07 1:47pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Actually I would rather be wrong, seriously.
Although all the details may never be known or even proved, the 9/11 truth movement will not die out like the JFK thing has, because there are so many living relatives of the deseased, (some now view them as martyers in a false flag op.)that are mad at the government and they will breed other followers. A future US government may well have to deal with this all over again. This isn't going away so easy, these people are very driven to get some justice for their dead loved ones.
For example the 4 New Jersey Widows, as shown in this trailer for a movie they are in.
2 Minute trailer of movie below
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8666444901186351024
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MGG-112487
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
8/7/07 8:46pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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I'm undecided when it comes to the JFK, MLK, and RFK assassinations. However, I think Oliver Stone was right in his film that the military-industrial complex and the CIA were and are dirty.
As to 9/11, what bothers me is what the Project for a New American Century said about a "second Pearl Harbor." I liked Bush after 9/11, but I began to dislike him in 2002 (due to his Iraq talk), and have found more and more reasons to dislike him ever since. I don't think Reagan was above telling the Iranians not to release the hostages until after the election, and, since Bush is worse than Reagan, I don't think he's not above allowing 9/11 to happen to get his advisors' much-wanted Iraq War. However, I hope to goodness that is not the case, and there is no evidence that it is.
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"You have to learn love yourself, and God can help you do that." -- My Former Sister-Figure, May 2006
"God has great things in store for you! Keep your eyes on Him!" -- My Current Sister-Figure, March 2007
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GenAntilles
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
8/7/07 9:03pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Conspiracy theories seem to me to be fantasies when you don't want to believe something. You want to believe that great men like JFK, RFK, and MLK.Jr were killed by powerful corrupt organizations rather than one crazy lone. You want to believe that a leader you don't like was behind 9/11. You don't want to believe it was done by people that really hate us and want us to die becuase that would make the leader you hate seem right. You want to believe anything that is against someone you hate.
In all honesty I trust our President, I trust the CIA, NSA, FBI, and the Military. I don't buy the theories they're against us. And besides what would any of them GAIN from ANY of these conspiracies?
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"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire  God Bless America All Hail Pellaeon! Savior of the Empire!
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MGG-112487
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
8/7/07 10:35pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
- Date Edited:
8/7/07 10:42pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
MGG-112487
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Charming. Good for you. I never said I wanted to believe anything--unless there is undisputable evidence. I don't believe in American exceptionalism because I'm not ethnocentric. I'm not saying that you are, but mainstream historians agree that the pre-2000s CIA was pretty bad. I don't know what to say about the CIA of this decade. What can you gain? That the human intellect can triumph. Humanity is something to be enhanced rather than something that should remain static. However, none of these conspiracies have been proven. Personally, I think the 9/11 conspiracy business is the least likely. After all, I read the 9/11 Commission Report before the 2004 election. My favorite part of it was the statement that Al Qaeda didn't return any of Saddam's calls and that it was Iran, not Iraq, who was apparently connected to Al Qaeda.
By the way, Antilles, I like your Voltaire quote. I agree with Harry Truman that this is a great country that was built by great people. Also, Truman told Merle Miller that how he set the CIA up was a "mistake" in Plain Speaking: An Oral Biography of Harry S. Truman. However, I'm not saying that everyone in the CIA is bad. You know what they say about people who make generalizations. Lol.
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"You have to learn love yourself, and God can help you do that." -- My Former Sister-Figure, May 2006
"God has great things in store for you! Keep your eyes on Him!" -- My Current Sister-Figure, March 2007
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GenAntilles
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
8/7/07 11:41pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Just letting you know I wasn't arguing with you, so sorry If you thought I was  I was making an overall statement of the reasons people I've talked to believe these theories, and some of the things you posted jogged my mind on some examples.
I've heard people talk about some things the CIA has done but given the threat we faced from the Cold War I usually give them a pass.
And the Iraq, Iran, Al-Qaeda connection. I've always wondered if some CIA guy made a typo and we were really supposed to be worried about Irans WMDs and Al-Qaeda connections 
Oh and thanks for noticing my Voltaire quote!
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"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire God Bless America All Hail Pellaeon! Savior of the Empire!
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Darth Geist
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
8/8/07 9:21am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
- Date Edited:
8/8/07 9:21am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth Geist
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You can go online and read Project for a New American Century. It has one throwaway reference to Pearl Harbor, which conspiracy theorists have pulled completely out of context.
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Joe Biden posted:
What do you talk about when you have nothing to say?
What do you talk about when you cannot explain the last
eight years of failure? You talk about the other guy!
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
8/8/07 9:50am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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MGG-112487 posted:
As to 9/11, what bothers me is what the Project for a New American Century said about a "second Pearl Harbor."
First of all, the phrase was "new Pearl Harbor", not "second Pearl Harbor".
And, if you read the context of the comment (it's on page 58 of the PDF, the internal numbering puts it at the top of page 51), it certainly wasn't advocating triggering any sort of attack on the US. It was talking about the importance of upgrading our military to deal with the threats of tomorrow, specifically upgrading our infrastructure and our thinking.
In fact, for your edification and enjoyment, here's the relevant paragraph:Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor. Domestic politics and industrial policy will shape the pace and content of transformation as much as the requirements of current missions. A decision to suspend or terminate aircraft carrier production, as recommended by this report and as justified by the clear direction of military technology, will cause great upheaval. Likewise, systems entering production today – the F-22 fighter, for example – will be in service inventories for decades to come. Wise management of this process will consist in large measure of figuring out the right moments to halt production of current-paradigm weapons and shift to radically new designs. The expense associated with some programs can make them roadblocks to the larger process of transformation – the Joint Strike Fighter program, at a total of approximately $200 billion, seems an unwise investment. Thus, this report advocates a two-stage process of change – transition and transformation – over the coming decades. The entire document is advocating a slow, deliberate change in US policy and military structure. The "new Pearl Harbor" mentioned would actually be more of a hindrance to that than it would be a help.
I mean, it's recommending canceling massive programs like the JSF, not building more carriers, and focusing on experimenting with newer technologies as force multipliers. It specifically avoids calling for radical changes, instead preferring an evolutionary change in the military.
That's just one example of how a single phrase can be taken out of context by a conspiracy theorist and turned into something far more sinister than it really is.
Do me a favor. Before you go on again about how the PNAC called for a second Pearl Harbor, why don't you educate yourself about what they actually wrote from the horse's mouth? Don't go to some blog or web site that tries to summarize it for you. Read the actual document. It's not that hard (even if it is about 75 pages long). Don't worry. They use a fairly large font.
Kimball Kinnison
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You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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MGG-112487
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
8/8/07 11:34am
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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Well, I guess my eidetic memory isn't that eidetic. I read it in 2003, and it's kind of hard to find a CNN article after such a long time. What I was saying was that comment could be misconstrued. I don't regularly talk with conspiracy theorists. My roommate is working on a double major in history and political science (he's a second year senior). He's the guy I talk with most of the time.
Personally, I think it's a little suspicious when a whole bunch of people, including Abraham Zapruder, heard shots coming from the front and behind. It's also a little weird when RFK was taking into a kitchen when it wasn't really necessary. Also, Martin Luther King's family doesn't believe James Earl Ray was the assassin.
If people are wrong about someone acting alone or a conspiracy, at least they tried to use the human intellect. It's when people try to pursue one theory or the other for their own advantage that's it's wrong. I don't think anyone is doing that here.
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"You have to learn love yourself, and God can help you do that." -- My Former Sister-Figure, May 2006
"God has great things in store for you! Keep your eyes on Him!" -- My Current Sister-Figure, March 2007
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Blue_Jedi33
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
8/9/07 6:37pm
Subject:
RE: Conspiracy Theories
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This is not so much of a 9/11 was an inside job, but an interview with a fireman first responder.
He raised some interesting points to be considered from someone that was there.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=53815767687186956&hl=en
A sad commentary on that day.
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