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Author	Topic: The Polyamorous Partner Movement
dizfactor Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 5/22/07 11:13am Subject: RE: The Polyamorous Partner Movement
	ROTSFan posted: SuperWatto posted: Copping out, more like. True, true. I am kind of interested in the porn thing though, because I never got my question answered and it does have to do with multiple partners. They do get tested regularly, but I'm fairly certain that that the bit about the contract isn't true. I have some friends who are involved in the industry at various levels, but none of them are contract performers for any of the big companies, so it may be different for them, but this would be the first I've ever heard of it. It's something of an open secret that a lot of the performers in Porn Valley supplement their porn incomes with high-end prostitution, so I can't imagine that any such contracts are diligently enforced even if they exist. Condoms in porn are a favorite windmill for porn reformers to tilt at. The conventional wisdom is that seeing condoms onscreen will destroy the fantasy and kill the industry. I think that's B*, but what can you do? All of this is really OT, though, and I still intend to post on the actual topic. -----signature----- "Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century." Julian Dibbell "You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat." Gryph
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ROTSFan Registered: Jul '06	Date Posted: 5/22/07 4:25pm Subject: RE: The Polyamorous Partner Movement
	Interesting. I was always curious about that, I had read the bios of a couple ex stars (Jameson and Lords) and it didn't allude much to that aspect. It did seem improbable that it could be strictly enforced, what with boyfriends/girlfriends, spouses and all. -----signature----- Fics in profile; ask me to unlock ~I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything I hoped it would be." - Office Space
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ShaneP Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 5/23/07 3:42pm Subject: RE: The Polyamorous Partner Movement - Date Edited: 5/23/07 3:44pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ShaneP
	I don't know if it's anything contractual, but some women stars do have guys they prefer to "perform" with and will have a say about it. The women have alot more say than the men, at least those in front of the camera. edit About the condom thing: some production companies and contracted stars require it. "No glove, no love." -----signature----- It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
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Epicauthor Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/6/07 10:34am Subject: RE: The Polyamorous Partner Movement
	Bringing multiple people to bed can be a fun way to experiement IF, and only IF, (IMHO) no one is involved and everyone is into it. The second that a "relationship" occurs, it can get ugly with trust issues and the like. I would recommend it, but not for people who are in a committed long term relationship. -----signature----- I can see Mexico from my house.
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ShaneP Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 6/6/07 1:34pm Subject: RE: The Polyamorous Partner Movement
	Wise words epicauthor. -----signature----- It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
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Eleventh_Guard Registered: Dec '05	Date Posted: 6/7/07 4:36pm Subject: RE: The Polyamorous Partner Movement
	I think that polyamory is fine as long as everyone in the arrangement is open and honest with all others about what's going on. There's a lot of potential for miscommunication and hurt feelings - but that's true of any relationship; the odds just go up a little the more people there are unless special effort is made. Honesty is the main factor. I'd be willing to enter an open relationship, but cheating is unacceptable; cheating implies dishonesty. As far as STD risks - polyamory is no riskier than "serial monogamy". -----signature----- A conversation on Dathomir: Welk: My daughter did that... I am blameless. I'm not even armed. Jacen: And you just let her do whatever she wants? Welk: You're new here, aren't you?
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eaglejedi Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 6/8/07 2:38am Subject: RE: The Polyamorous Partner Movement - Date Edited: 6/8/07 2:42am (1 edits total) Edited By: eaglejedi
	Regarding STD risks- the last poster FTW. Serial monogamy being, BTW, the fate of most "monogamous" people, due to the biological tendency to fall in and out of love in a discrete period of time. This is why the average marriage lasts about four years. It starts with infatuation, biologically driven by production of phenylethylamine (or PEA), an amphetamine-like natural stimulant, and then moves on to attachment, driven by natural chemical analogs to opiates. These are powerful neurotransmitters that exert a strong influence on one's thinking and decisions. But eventually they stop being produced and/or having the same effect. When the chemicals go away, you wake up one day and look at this person and go "why am I with him/her?" And if you encounter someone else that stimulates feelings of infatuation, the grass looks a lot greener on the other side, and bob's your uncle. Not saying that long-term relationships are impossible, only that most people in the West think that they should be based on feelings of romantic love, not realizing that those feelings generally don't last a lifetime. Truly successful long-term relationships are generally based on something more lasting and stable. I should also point out that not only is cheating in supposedly monogamous relationships more common than many people think, but there is significant evidence to suggest that there is a biological imperative to cheat to some degree, especially for men. Monogamy is about the farthest thing from the most efficient (in terms of passing down genes) male reproductive strategy. Since minimum male parental investment is only a short amount of time and small amount of resources, it is to the male's evolutionary advantage to move on and father more children with different women. While the evolutionary advantages of cheating seem much less obvious (and the risks much higher) for women, they do it enough to make it seem that in some cases in the Environment of Evolutionary Adaptation (EEA), there may have been an advantage to cheating for females. It is important to distinguish between closed polyamorous relationships, open relationships, normal dating, and free love/free-for-all, which last is what the initial post sounded like it was talking about, and which is not what is usually meant by "polyamorous." There was an interesting episode of Penn and Teller: ******** in which they took on monogamy. Among other things, they talked to and discussed a married couple that was living in a closed polyamorous relationship with another man and woman. One of the main reasons the people involved gave for doing that, was that they felt less constricted and less pressured having two partners each, not one. For example, if one of them comes home tired and the other's horny or something like that, it's not necessarily a problem. It doesn't mean they sleep around, or that they're not committed to each other. It's just that there are more than two people involved. I would say that polyamory's probably not for everyone- some people probably would have too much trouble with sharing their partner. While that problem fundamentally represents an inability or unwillingness to let go of neurotic attachment, that doesn't mean one can simply dismiss powerful feelings of jealousy and whatnot, or expect people to simply ignore them. But for some people, I'm sure it's a perfectly reasonable alternative to the conventional monogamy or nothing dichotomy. Some people are capable of, or will at some point in their lives become capable of, sharing their partner, at least with one or maybe two other known, committed partners. It's entirely possible to truly be in love with and/or love, more than one person at once (I know from mostly recent, personal experience), and polyamory is an alternative to having to choose between them. I would tend to think that polyamory would be more workable for people who have already involved in more or less successful monogamous relationships, and thus have some idea how relationships work and how to deal with one partner. Open relationships could also work for some people. I agree that it is important that whatever the arrangement, all parties know and agree- if that requirement is met, various kinds of relationship arrangements can work for the people involved. If it works for the people involved, I don't see that it's much of anyone else's business. Especially once one gets past the tired old Divine Command- and Natural Law-based moral dogmas that enshrine monogamy as the only acceptable sexual relationship between two human beings. -----signature----- Council Jedi Master, Light Side Jedi Order http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=17346237&brd=10008&start=28564937 Love everything, for that is why you are here. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.-Gandhi http://www.thehungersite.com
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Lowbacca_1977 Title: Senate Moderator Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 6/8/07 2:42am Subject: RE: The Polyamorous Partner Movement
	To take the level of discussion down a notch, i'm totally being reminded of parts of the end of Chasing Amy now.
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Kimball_Kinnison Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 6/8/07 4:49am Subject: RE: The Polyamorous Partner Movement
	eaglejedi posted: This is why the average marriage lasts about four years. I'm sorry, but you're going to have to PPOR on that one. This source says that you are off by 2 decades. You are going to have to back yourself up or else a large part of your argument is out the window. This source indicates that first marriages (which is a subset of all marriages, and the most likely to end in divorce) that end in divorce (so again, not all first marriages) last on average 8 years. That means that for the average marriage (including both those that end in divorce and those that don't) lasts considerably longer. Kimball Kinnison -----signature----- You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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ShaneP Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 6/10/07 2:56pm Subject: RE: The Polyamorous Partner Movement
	Kimball, I think eaglejedi mixed up marriage with car ownership... -----signature----- It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
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eaglejedi Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 6/11/07 12:32am Subject: RE: The Polyamorous Partner Movement
	Kimball, are your stats for the US or for the world? Also, going up to what year? My stats were from my Anthro 310 textbook and covered I think something like 94 different countries, including the US. When I'm home again and have the chance I will try to find the book. -----signature----- Council Jedi Master, Light Side Jedi Order http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=17346237&brd=10008&start=28564937 Love everything, for that is why you are here. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.-Gandhi http://www.thehungersite.com
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Kimball_Kinnison Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 6/11/07 2:47am Subject: RE: The Polyamorous Partner Movement - Date Edited: 6/11/07 2:55am (1 edits total) Edited By: Kimball_Kinnison
	eaglejedi posted: Kimball, are your stats for the US or for the world? Also, going up to what year? My stats were from my Anthro 310 textbook and covered I think something like 94 different countries, including the US. When I'm home again and have the chance I will try to find the book. Those were for the US, but the US also has the world's highest divorce rate, by a significant margin. Statistically, your number just doesn't make sense, unless a lot of people are being widowed every year (and by a lot I mean tons of people). For example, for every couple that is married for 20 years, you would need to have another 5 couples who are only married for a year before death or divorce. For every couple married for 50 years, you would need 15 who are only married for 1 year. That just doesn't add up. Kimball Kinnison -----signature----- You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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dizfactor Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 10/1/07 3:23pm Subject: RE: The Polyamorous Partner Movement
	Bumping this because it's more immediately on my mind lately for a variety of reasons. I did promise that I had a lot to say on this topic! My general responses to various topics that have come up in this thread and just points about poly relationships that I think are worth mentioning: Both monogamy and polyamory can be done well or can be done badly. It's trickier to do well, I think, than monogamy, because there are more variables at play and fewer models for how things are supposed to be done. A monogamous relationship has basically one primary dimension: how do person A and person B relate to each other? Let's say there are three people (Person A, person B, and person C) in a triad situation. Here are the relationship variables as I see them: 1) How A and B feel about each other as individuals. 2) How B and C feel about each other as individuals. 3) How A and C feel about each other as individuals. 4) How A feels about the way B and C relate to each other, and vice versa. 5) How B feels about the way A and C relate to each other, and vice versa. 6) How C feels about the way A and B relate to each other, and vice versa. 7) How A, B, and C work together as an overall unit. Add further levels of complication with more partners and more complex arrangements than a simple triad. Further complicating the issue is the aforementioned lack of models. Monogamous relationships have a superabundance of real-life examples, media representations, self-help guides, etc, whereas the pickings are slim for those of us doing something else. To be sure, historically, monogamy has been one of a number of options practiced in different places and times, but most previous models of multiple partner relationships are not the sort of thing most contemporary polyamorous people are looking for. As a result, to be poly in 2007 is in many ways to be mapping largely unexplored territory. Especially at the beginning of a new relationship, it's easy to feel a bit overwhelmed as you're basically being constantly thrown into novel situations for which you have absolutely no model, no precedent, no earthly idea of what you should be doing. However, that disadvantage is simultaneously an advantage. There's no model for how to do this, no rulebook, no one standing over your shoulder. Your only limits are your own imagination and the consent of your partners. You are free to want any sort of arrangement you want, and you are free to try to make it work. Here is my advice for doing so: * Communication is everything: Literally, everything. If you have any doubt that something is not clear, make it clear. If you're not sure how someone feels about something, ask them, and be prepared for an answer. If someone asks you something, give them the most honest answer you know how to give. If you don't know how you feel about something, say that you don't know how you feel about something. If you're feeling conflicted, explain the conflict. Define what basic concepts like "sex," "marriage," "dating," etc., mean to you, and what you expect and want in each area. Talk about specific sex acts and where your boundaries are with them. Check in periodically to see if things have changed. Never assume anything goes without saying. * You are responsible for articulating your own boundaries and policing them: Part of communication is being honest about what you're OK with, what you're not OK with, and what you aren't sure whether or not you're OK with. There is absolutely no room for any kind of expectation of mind-reading, second-guessing, or saying one thing while meaning another in a polyamorous relationship. None. Zero. If you say "Yes, you can do this," you cannot come back in two days with "Well, you should have known I didn't mean it." Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to pick up a bemused tolerance for this sort of crap from certain models of monogamous relationships, where men are expected to affect a certain stoicism and where women are allowed to essentially test their partners by their ability to read counter-meanings between the lines. However, it does not fly with poly relationships. It's not cute, it's just immature. If partner A says partner B can sleep with partner C but doesn't mean it, and B & C sleep together, when A turns around and retroactively revokes permission, not only is it unfair to B but it's unfair to C, who has now been placed in the position of becoming an unintentional homewrecker despite having acted in good faith. That said... * When in doubt, choose the spirit of the rules rather than the letter: Don't get legalistic. Don't act entitled. Don't go looking for loopholes. Don't go into negotiations with a partner like you're in a boardroom or a courtroom, trying to trick or coerce someone into agreeing to an agreement you can spin to justify doing whatever you want to do at whoever's expense. Your partners have an obligation to play it straight with respect to their boundaries, but you have an obligation not to twist their words against them, feign ignorance, play with technicalities, etc. Your partners are your partners, not your adversaries. If you want something your partner is not comfortable with, negotiate, try to find a compromise, but don't ever pretend you thought it was OK or try to weasel your way into getting what you want through spin. * Keep track, but don't keep score: You are not entitled to screw whoever you want simply because your partner has another partner. If there are huge, gross disparities over time, particularly when one partner is unwilling to compromise or step even the tiniest bit outside their comfort zone while expecting you to accept whatever they want to do, obviously, don't be a doormat, but don't turn it into a tit-for-tat thing. It's not good or fair to anyone involved. * If your partner having sex with someone else is something you simply put up with, begrudgingly, so that you can get a piece of tail yourself without them having grounds to be upset, this is not for you: Self-explanatory. Some people can start off with this attitude and grow out of it, but if you're just looking at in terms of what's in it for you, you're going to get hurt and hurt other people. * Be flexible: Things change. People change. What might be OK in one situation might not be in a similar situation, and what wasn't OK last year might be OK this year. You need to be proactive about keeping people updated when things change, and you have to be open to allowing * Learn to separate how you actually feel from how you think you're supposed to feel, and what you actually want from you think you're supposed to want: Relentless and, at time, brutally honest self-examination is important. Maybe you're disinterested and apathetic when you were expecting to be excited. Maybe you're excited when you thought you'd be jealous. Maybe you're feeling insecure in a situation you thought you would be totally comfortable with. Just remember that it's OK to want whatever it is you want, it's OK to not want whatever it is you don't want, and it's OK to feel whatever it is that you feel. Just be prepared to dig deeper, and be aware that you may find things you don't want to find if you go overturning every rock in the proverbial garden. As such... * Be prepared for trial by fire: If you are serious about pursuing this, you are going to be tested. Period. Moments of fear, pain, loss, confusion are going to come to you, and some of them are going to really suck. However, you will learn a lot about yourself through this process. Think of them like an initiation ordeal, or birth pangs, or, if you're into the whole Joseph Campbell shtick, your journey into the underworld. Keeping that in mind... * Don't make mountains out of molehills and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater: Your partner is late calling to check in with you while they're out with someone else, and as a result your mind starts racing with all sorts of horrible possibilities, usually of the "they've gotten into a car accident" or "they've decided to leave me" varieties. If you are really interested in making this work, and you think it can work for you, and this isn't part of a larger pattern of inconsiderate behavior on your partner's part, the appropriate response is probably not "ZOMG! Poly is never going to work!" You are going to hit roadbumps. If this is something you want to do, you have to treat them as such. If, on the other hand, you find yourself looking for the first excuse to press EJECT, then maybe you need to reexamine whether or not you actually want this. * Poly is learned; jealousy can be un-learned: There is a learning curve. It takes work, it takes sacrifice, it takes time and practice to do well. However, with all those things, it can be done. You can unlearn jealousy to some extent, and you can learn to deal with what remains much more effectively. Probably the most common objections I hear are "I could never do that, I'm too jealous!" or "People can't really do that, they're too jealous by nature!" Complete bullpuckey. Through self-examination, practice, trial and error, and open communication, you can let go of a lot of your baggage and take control of your emotional reactions instead of letting them control you, and when you do, it is so liberating you would have a hard time believing it. It's like getting rid of a weight on your chest you didn't even know was there. * Relax and let relationships find their own levels: A big recurring theme in The Ethical Slut. Don't try to plug relationships into preexisting molds - just let them go where they want to go insofar as everyone's comfortable. For example, I have a friendship with someone where there's an underlying sexual tension and mutual attraction, which has become almost absurdly sensual and loving and intimate but has never become overtly sexual. All relevant partners have been briefed and we have permission to do whatever we want to do, but for now we simply haven't gone there. I've woken up in the morning multiple times now to find her curled up with me in my nekkidness, cuddling and touching me, or feeding me berries, and it's been incredible, but there's been no pressure at all to do anything but savor the moment as it is. You don't have to have sex with everyone, sex doesn't have to mean the same thing in every relationship, you can have short, intense flings, or long, drawn-out courtships, or periodic ***-buddies, if it works for everyone. Learn to be pickier as time goes on: Eventually, you will figure out what works for you and what doesn't. Just like monogamous people need to learn to be happy being single before they can really be happy being in a relationship, you have to learn to turn down people who aren't what you're looking for. This is especially challenging for newbies, especially newbie couples, who may feel like they need to "prove" that they're poly and will basically hook up with anyone else who's reasonably attractive and open to a poly thing. To a certain extent, it's not as bad in the beginning, because you need to learn somehow, but once you get your **** together, you can be picky. Of particular note... * You don't have to sleep with your partner's partner just because they're into it: Speaks for itself. * Find a community: This is much easier to do when you know other people who don't think you're crazy. Seriously, find a support network. People who understand are like gold, treat them accordingly. Opens up dating possibilities, also. * Be aware that all of the above is also true for monogamous people, but they're less likely to be aware of it: If you are having problems with any of the above areas, you will continue to have problems with them regardless of whether or not you're monogamous or poly, and they will be equally destructive in your life. If you're not good at knowing what you want and communicating it effectively, that's a problem that you're going to have to deal with regardless of what sort of relationship you ultimately settle into. * Go read The Ethical Slut: Seriously. Poly is not for everyone. It's just not. However, I think it could work for more people than currently practice it. Here are some reasons it works for me: * Personal growth: My relationships can grow and change as I do, and I learn more and more about myself the longer and longer I do this. I having become a better person through what I have learned through living like this. * Deeper relationships: I can hear the howls of protest, but in my experience, poly relationships run deeper than mono ones. The communication is worlds better overall - I am continually astounded at how little the monogamous couples I know seem to talk about really crucial issues - and I feel that the opportunities for personal growth for each individual allow each individual to live a fuller life and bring more to the relationship. Plus, there are a whole range of experiences that can bring people closer on levels other people can't even really understand. Just something as simple as being there for your partner while they fall in love with someone else, or helping comfort them during a breakup (sincerely!), opens up whole other worlds. There's no other way to describe it. You also have a very real reason not to get too complacent, not to take your partners for granted, to make every second you spend with someone count. You also have ample evidence that the other person sincerely and unselfishly wants to see you happy, and you have equally ample opportunities to demonstrate that in return. * Better sex: Every lover is a teacher, and exploring my own boundaries and feelings unlocks more and more about what makes me tick sexually. Plus, every lover is different, has different boundaries, and you can explore things with one that you can't with another. If one partner in a monogamous couple has, say, a clown fetish (this is a real fetish community, btw, for those who don't know), and the other doesn't, there are basically two choices: one partner suffers through wearing the clown suit or the other just has an unfulfilled fantasy. This provides many more options: one partner doesn't have to fulfill all your fantasies, or fulfill every sexual need, so you can relax and enjoy the things you share with each partner. Also, obviously, certain sexual activities like voyeurism and group play don't work as such in strictly monogamous relationships, and they can be a lot of fun if that's what you're into. * A different way of approaching life: I've got to say it's always amusing to see monogamous friends checking out a hottie of whatever sex they're attracted to, and do that sort of married-guy sigh and get all nostalgic about how they used to feel when they were younger and had all the options in the world. I can't help needling them about how I get to feel that way every day. I feel like I get all the benefits of being a grown-up without that soul-crushing narrowing of possibilities that seems to be happening to so many of my friends as we get older. I can still go to a club and shake what my mama gave me and flirt with the hottie at the bar. I still get all the rewards of a maturing long-term relationship and the fluttering excitement of new love, and the two even reinforce each other. I don't feel the desperation of singles to find someone, because I already have someone, but if I do find someone, I can see where it goes. Life seems as full of possibilities and adventure as it did when I was half my age, but now I have the maturity and experience to really enjoy it. I wouldn't trade my life for anyone else's, I'll tell you that much. In closing, my primary partner found this online. It's a really, really cute and funny and honest song which captures a lot of how it feels to be poly: Must Be Tuesday, "My Boyfriend's Girlfriend (Isn't Me)" -----signature----- "Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century." Julian Dibbell "You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat." Gryph
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