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Topic:
why haven't America and Australia been attacked
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Darth-Ghost
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
7/11/07 3:43pm
Subject:
RE: why haven't America and Australia been attacked
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I think this is relevant:
Al-Qaeda has rebuilt, as strong now as in the summer of 2001, Chertoff says he has a "gut feeling" we'll be attacked again this summer.
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
7/11/07 3:53pm
Subject:
RE: why haven't America and Australia been attacked
- Date Edited:
7/11/07 3:54pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Mr44
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So then E_S, we've come full circle. What is bothering people aren't the acts themselves, but rather the disclosure of such acts. Belmarsh isn't bad- not because of what goes on there, but because people aren't talking about what goes on there...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Australian intelligence services are specifically exempt from the National Freedom of Information Act. I know the British security services are as well, and I'd imagine that the same protection exists for the other countries that have been mentioned in the thread.
So, ASIO/ASIS agents could be hypothetically beating the crap out of dozens of people right now, but it wouldn't be a concern because they don't talk about it. Even if no one is being beat up, it still wouldn't be talked about or examined. Or perhaps more accurately, it would be a general concern, but people just don't think about it because it isn't in anyone's line of sight.
If the US wants to adopt European methods, then the US government simply shouldn't discuss what they are doing.
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
7/11/07 4:22pm
Subject:
RE: why haven't America and Australia been attacked
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If the US wants to adopt European methods, then the US government simply shouldn't discuss what they are doing.
Forgive me for being cold, but precisely.
E_S
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Fire_Ice_Death
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
7/11/07 4:42pm
Subject:
RE: why haven't America and Australia been attacked
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I'm going to go with: It's much easier to attack other places than the US and Australia. That or they're just waiting for the right time to attack. One of those.
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Obi-Zahn Kenobi
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
7/11/07 7:29pm
Subject:
RE: why haven't America and Australia been attacked
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Ender_Sai posted:
If the US wants to adopt European methods, then the US government simply shouldn't discuss what they are doing.
Forgive me for being cold, but precisely.
E_S
The problem/good thing in the United States is that our media is extremely anxious to make sure that every single case of an interrogator speaking rudely to an inmate is as widely publicized as possible.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
7/11/07 7:37pm
Subject:
RE: why haven't America and Australia been attacked
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I think, however, that since Watergate, the media has been in this spot where they seem to think the goal of journalism is to be the one that took down a president.
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LordTroepfchen
Registered:
Apr '07
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Date Posted:
7/11/07 9:31pm
Subject:
RE: why haven't America and Australia been attacked
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Ender-Sai posted:
I would recommend reading the Patriot Act in addition to commenting on it, rather than reading the opinions of people who haven't read the Act itself.
Oh, i have read it long ago. But of course PATRIOT has been a summary-term for the different acts and laws following 9/11.
But htere is a passage (I can´t quote, for I don´t have it on my computer anymore) that has been taken word by word from the "rules of declaring a stae of emergency" from the IRC.
That had been the reason for the Human Rights Comission to blame the US two years ago. It clearifies the conditions under which rights can be limited, but takes it out of the usual context of IRC rules (which is a draft-code, not ratified . . . no true rules).
BUT!: I think the Human Rights Comission has been entirely wrong about it. I have probably implied something else in my post, that was more to make the point that PATRIOT and GITMO both touch fields of change in law after 9/11.
I am a strong defender of -limitations of rights- when it comes to terrorism. 9/11 was something unique in history. There was no exisiting legal method in international law to provide any conclusive answer on what the US was allowed to do, or not. But I think it is nonesense to say the US cannot react therefore (as the HRC did to some extend), for International Law is not only about treaties but common law. And with every natural desaster causing 3000 dead, limitation of rights would have been perfectly justified.
SirakRomar wrote that the US has never declared the "state-of-emergency" which is absolutely right. But I think a delaration is not obligatory, when this state is obvious. "de-facto emergency" this is called and surely a dangerous idea, but not when you have such an extreme situation as (I repeat myself) 3000 dead.
So, my point was, it wasn´t that seperated as an issue . . . Gitmo and PATRIOT. But I am not one of those who think US should have taken a "human-rights"-protection-above-all approach on the situation. Because I think life is the ultimate right. Protecting it, justifies certain meassures.
Sorry if I take a very "International-Law"-tainted approach. If Sira would be here she would start arguing now, I expect. (We know each other from another political board, quite well)
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SirakRomar
Registered:
Mar '07
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Date Posted:
7/11/07 9:38pm
Subject:
RE: why haven't America and Australia been attacked
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Actually she is around, Marc. Äh . . . LordT. 
I guess we have discussed this before a dozen times. But this is not a lega board, so I won´t bore people with my response.
Nevertheless, I might say on the "limitations-of-rights" thing, which is surely very theoretic, as the US has not become a 1984-state, that it is highly arguable. And you have some points, surely.
Something the law-scientists all over the world realized, but media didn´t covered at all was, that other countries had more extreme responses to comparable threats (if there are any).
But welcome on this thread, LordT. Good to see, you are still to interested to stay away from discussions like this 
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
7/11/07 10:15pm
Subject:
RE: why haven't America and Australia been attacked
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LordT, you said that international law had no mechanisms do deal with the post-9/11 world, in effect ("There was no exisiting legal method in international law to provide any conclusive answer on what the US was allowed to do, or not")
However, in UNSCR 1368, it was recognised that Article 51, Chapter VII of the Charter was indeed applicable law (the inherent right of armed self defence), which meant that Chapter VII decisions became relevant precedents in US policy engagements.
E_S
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Jediflyer
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
7/11/07 10:33pm
Subject:
RE: why haven't America and Australia been attacked
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The problem/good thing in the United States is that our media is extremely anxious to make sure that every single case of an interrogator speaking rudely to an inmate is as widely publicized as possible.
Yes, because beating, waterboarding, and murdering detainees is the media's fault.
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LordTroepfchen
Registered:
Apr '07
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Date Posted:
7/11/07 11:01pm
Subject:
RE: why haven't America and Australia been attacked
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Ender Sai posted:
However, in UNSCR 1368, it was recognised that Article 51, Chapter VII of the Charter was indeed applicable law (the inherent right of armed self defence), which meant that Chapter VII decisions became relevant precedents in US policy engagements.
Chapter VII does not touch national rights, but only the right of self-defense in it´s different forms. It is a state-to-state right (in which terrorism is today an anology of a state). Limitations of rights to your own citizens are not covered under Chapter VII.
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Wolf Sazen, Darth Wyyrlok & Darth Imperi on 128 ABY . . . the game I love . . .
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
7/11/07 11:07pm
Subject:
RE: why haven't America and Australia been attacked
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Well, if you could give me a clear and concrete example of the curtailing of any US citizen's rights following Sept 11 - and I mean examples rather than vague anecdotes - I might consider your point as valid and factual. Otherwise, no.
E_S
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Jediflyer
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
7/12/07 4:39am
Subject:
RE: why haven't America and Australia been attacked
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Well, if you could give me a clear and concrete example of the curtailing of any US citizen's rights following Sept 11 - and I mean examples rather than vague anecdotes
Jose Padilla.
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
7/12/07 4:54am
Subject:
RE: why haven't America and Australia been attacked
- Date Edited:
7/12/07 5:08am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
DarthBoba
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An aside to Padilla:
Beyond that he was indeed charged under flimsy evidence, 2 of the 3 charges have been dismissed and he's currently undergoing psychiatric evaluation for PTSD due to extended isolation.
I'm not a particularly huge fan of the Patriot Act; this 'war' on terror will eventually subside or end, and if the Act is still law then I'll be grumpy, to say the least. But as I haven't seen any mass arrests of war protestors/declaration of Bush as First Emperor of the Republican Empire (:p), or declaration of martial law with no factual basis to do so, I'll be not as worried.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
7/12/07 6:08am
Subject:
RE: why haven't America and Australia been attacked
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DarthBoba posted:
An aside to Padilla:
Beyond that he was indeed charged under flimsy evidence, 2 of the 3 charges have been dismissed and he's currently undergoing psychiatric evaluation for PTSD due to extended isolation.
Actually, one of the dismissed charges (conspiracy to commit murder) was reinstated. source
The other dismissed charge was only dismissed in part, not in full.
Kimball Kinnison
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