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Topic:
Jedi Knight confronts school board ... and wins!
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
7/11/07 7:47pm
Subject:
RE: Jedi Knight confronts school board ... and wins!
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I don't know, I didn't have to do it, and only knew a couple of people who went to the school, and they weren't in my immediate circle of friends.
But I know it wasn't money. The vouchers allowed them to buy the clothes at a reduced price. If that represented a bulk discount, or a agreement with the school, I don't know. As an example, if you or I went to buy the pants, then they would cost $50, but using the vouchers, it would cost them $20. The guys I knew would try and stretch them. Freshman year, if they only bought one tie and made it last for all 4 years, then that's money that could be used toward more shirts (The shirts were polo type and looked fine outside of school) or something else.
The boys had it easy, because the uniform was plan blue or gray pants with polo shirt in summer, and long sleeve shirt and tie in winter. (I think a sweater was optional) So things like shirts and the like could be used over year to year, saving more money.
I think the girls were screwed most of all because it seemed like the style of skirt was always changing year to year. One year it was pleats, the other plain, and then plaid skirts. I don't know if the girls wanted this, but it seemed that they were never able to pass one style on to the next year and always had to but new clothes.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
7/11/07 8:20pm
Subject:
RE: Jedi Knight confronts school board ... and wins!
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It won't be the American system being checked here... but I will have to ask my gf when I can, as she's currently at work AT a store that sells school uniforms. I know there are agreements of some fashion between the store and the schools.
And the shirts, may or may not look fine outside of school. For comparison, I had friends that went to a school where the uniforms were red. I can't stand the colour, and I look bad in red. I'm more of a shades of blue person. I don't own a single red shirt.
I'll again say, I'm not criticising the idea of moderate dress codes. There are things that arent' school appropriate. I know when I was in high school I heard wind of a girl that got in trouble because she just wore a bikini top to school. I feel like I missed out in that I did not SEE this, but I'd still acknowledge that thats not appropriate at school. However, there is a distinction between asking people to dress within a few basic guidelines and proscribing what, specifically, they should wear.
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
7/11/07 8:29pm
Subject:
RE: Jedi Knight confronts school board ... and wins!
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Yeah, I don't disagree. In my case, I just don't think I would care. If the school changed to a specific code, I'd just wear the pants and probably not think about it. Did I like wearing jeans? Sure, but not enough to loose sleep if I had to wear something else. None of the guys I knew that had to wear uniforms seemed to care very much either.
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Peter Shoomaker
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
7/12/07 8:55pm
Subject:
RE: Jedi Knight confronts school board ... and wins!
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And again, money thing. I don't think public schools should expect that cost from students and their families.
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Divia
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
7/13/07 7:11am
Subject:
RE: Jedi Knight confronts school board ... and wins!
- Date Edited:
7/13/07 7:12am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Divia
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Well, good for you, but I think the school board made a foolish decision. I grow tired of the half shirts, cleavage and boxer sightings that I see EVERDAY in the classroom. I am a public school librarian so I know very well how the school system works.
I dare say most schools have a dress code policy. The problem is that when it is enforced by teachers, parents get upset because we are infringing on their child's right to look like a strumpet. Oh I'm sorry. Please forgive me. We send kids home to get changed and it becomes a huge ordeal. They come back, they dont come back. if they dont come back we have to find them. If we send them to the nurse to find other clothes, they throw a fit.
School is for learning, not for dressing up like a strumpet and parading your ass around for guys to see it. I'm all for school uniforms. I want them. I think we need them as the style of clothes continues to become shorter and shorter. Hell, as a teacher I would wear a uniform. I have no problem with it.
Uniforms do not crush your identity. If you are that fragile a person that you need clothes to show who you are then I am very sorry for you(you as a general term)
And frankly I don’t want to see people’s body parts hanging out. And I know a lot of male teachers are downright uncomfortable with it. They cant say anything because if they do they are looked upon as some perv. Its an uncomfortable working enviorment.
So good for you to stand up for your belifs, but the school board made a horrid decision.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
7/13/07 7:20am
Subject:
RE: Jedi Knight confronts school board ... and wins!
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You're completely mixing issues. Why isn't the dress code enforced in that case, if there is one? Second, then what is to prevent abuses of the uniforms? Cleavage and boxer shorts can both be made visible with uniforms just as well as not, the question is enforcement.
If a guy is told to pull his pants up, how's that make a difference if its the pants for the uniform or the pants that were just adhereing to the dress code? Whats to stop girls from wearing the dresses or skirts that would come with the uniform shorter and shorter anyway by adjusting it themselves?
And of course, if you've an issue with working in that environment, where you don't like the customer interaction, then have you considered working at a private school instead of a public school?
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Divia
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
7/13/07 7:52am
Subject:
RE: Jedi Knight confronts school board ... and wins!
- Date Edited:
7/13/07 7:53am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Divia
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You just dont get it lowbacca.
Obviously you dont work in a school. 
I have worked at both a public and a private one. One I taught history, the other I am a librarian.
At the private school the boys boxers never showed because they wore a belt. They had to wear a belt. The girls skirts on occasion did drift higher than they should be and we addressed that. However, it should be noted that I dare say 97% of the girls wore shorts under their boxers. I never once saw any cleavage at the private school, and I'm glad of it. I also didnt see any rolls from fat girls wearing shirts 3 sizes too small. Another thing I am grateful for. I never once saw mid drift shirts another thing to be proud of.
Did you not read my post about the dress code? It is being enforced and parents are outraged that it is being enforced. They truly believe(some anyway) that their daughter has a RIGHT to walk around like a strumpet with her breast and butt hanging out of her clothes. When we do take action it turns into a major ordeal.
As for the short skirt issues, if you wear jumpsuit type dresses that gets rid of that problem. No rolling the skirt. That was done by some private schools in the area.
The point is I shouldnt have to leave my job because students look like sluts. They should cover themselves up and wear appropriate clothes. I cannot go into work wearing hooker boots, a leather mini and a bra for a shirt. That is not appropriate attire. When you have male teachers that are afraid to address students, or even go near them because they are in short skirts and short shirts its an issue. I know teachers who dont want to talk to these students because then others will think they are pervs.
The point is uniforms at the private school helped put an end to all the issues we..and other schools have about clothes.
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Vezner
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
7/13/07 8:37am
Subject:
RE: Jedi Knight confronts school board ... and wins!
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I personally don't have a preference one way or another. I can certainly understand why students would want to wear whatever they wish, but kids don't always need to have what they want either. I guess my opinion is that if the school board and parents feel that uniforms will help the students learn better and/or behave better, then it's a good thing. I still believe in the idea that adults typically know what's better for their kids than the kids themselves do.
BTW, kind of off topic, but in that video there was one girl that said, "To be honest, and I'm not saying this to be rude or show disrepect, but some of you people make me sick. I'm 17 years old and trying to be mature and stand up here to tell you my side and you will not listen." I'm sorry but that just got a good laugh out of me. Is it mature to tell someone that you don't mean to be rude or show any disrepect when you tell them that they make you sick? LOL! This only validates my point, IMO anyway, that kids aren't always "mature" enough to know what's best. 
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McCain 2008  I support the troops that are fighting and dying for our Freedom! Christians have rights of expression too.  "The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing." --Edmund Burke
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Divia
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
7/13/07 9:54am
Subject:
RE: Jedi Knight confronts school board ... and wins!
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I can't argue with that.
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
7/13/07 12:09pm
Subject:
RE: Jedi Knight confronts school board ... and wins!
- Date Edited:
7/13/07 12:12pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DarthBoba
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A quick note...
a few thousand years ago, this was the usual girl's wear for school in Sparta:
Seems things haven't changed much. 
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Third-World Infrastructure.
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
7/13/07 3:51pm
Subject:
RE: Jedi Knight confronts school board ... and wins!
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Vezner posted:
This only validates my point, IMO anyway, that kids aren't always "mature" enough to know what's best.
Neither are adults.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
7/13/07 11:36pm
Subject:
RE: Jedi Knight confronts school board ... and wins!
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Divia posted:
Did you not read my post about the dress code? It is being enforced and parents are outraged that it is being enforced. They truly believe(some anyway) that their daughter has a RIGHT to walk around like a strumpet with her breast and butt hanging out of her clothes. When we do take action it turns into a major ordeal.
In which case, I say let a big deal be made of it. Enforce it frequently and consistantly and harshly, and parents aren't going to get into the arguements about it time and time and time again.
I don't get why the majority of students should have to deal with uniforms because some people can't dress themselves properly on their own. Like, you mention the midriffs....those were against my high school's dress code, and I don't ever remember seeing those getting worn. I also knew one or two people that did get in trouble for dress code violations.
As for the job issue...like I said prior...there is a difference between the responsibilities of the employees (you) and the customers (students) especially given that going to school is a requirement by law. And why I don't care if a private school chooses to have uniforms.
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Divia
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
7/14/07 7:41am
Subject:
RE: Jedi Knight confronts school board ... and wins!
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
Divia posted:
Did you not read my post about the dress code? It is being enforced and parents are outraged that it is being enforced. They truly believe(some anyway) that their daughter has a RIGHT to walk around like a strumpet with her breast and butt hanging out of her clothes. When we do take action it turns into a major ordeal.
In which case, I say let a big deal be made of it. Enforce it frequently and consistantly and harshly, and parents aren't going to get into the arguements about it time and time and time again.
I don't get why the majority of students should have to deal with uniforms because some people can't dress themselves properly on their own. Like, you mention the midriffs....those were against my high school's dress code, and I don't ever remember seeing those getting worn. I also knew one or two people that did get in trouble for dress code violations.
As for the job issue...like I said prior...there is a difference between the responsibilities of the employees (you) and the customers (students) especially given that going to school is a requirement by law. And why I don't care if a private school chooses to have uniforms.
Ah, but you see its not the minority who is doing it. When you walk into a store and look a girls clothes the majority of those clothes are tight shirts, low cut and high shorts. Jeans are low cut, but they have gotten a tad higher. So if all you have to buy are said clothes then it becomes an issue, which it is.
As for going after the students, yeah thats easy for you to say. I'm afraid you are unaware what actually goes on in a school from a teachers or admins position. There are much more pressing matters that one must deal with then listening to a screaming parent because their child has a right to dress like a whore.
And I should NOT have to find another job because students cannot dress properly. What type of message areyou sending students when they dress like that? Its OK? We are suppose to be prepairing them for the world ahead. Their boss will not allow them to wear said clothes, why should we?
But, eh whatever. Its far too easy for those who are not in the school system to criticize. Much to my dismay they will never truly understand what happens.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
7/14/07 7:56pm
Subject:
RE: Jedi Knight confronts school board ... and wins!
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Well, if its the majority, either schools have changed drastically since I was last in a high school (working for a company last fall that meant I was going out and working at high schools) or there is something very abnormal about either the several schools I've been in last year, or the school you're working at, as it hasn't been the majority at the schools I've been at.
[quote]And I should NOT have to find another job because students cannot dress properly. What type of message areyou sending students when they dress like that? Its OK? We are suppose to be prepairing them for the world ahead. Their boss will not allow them to wear said clothes, why should we?[/quote]
I wasn't aware that at your school, the kids are getting paid a wage to be there. I feel dress codes are entirely fine, however, given students have to, by law, go to school, I don't think forcing them to buy clothes is fair. Second, at least when I was in high school, a fairly large chunk of them had bosses because they worked part time. At school, the students aren't employees, they're customers, and thats a different realtionship from boss-employee.
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Divia
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
7/14/07 8:33pm
Subject:
RE: Jedi Knight confronts school board ... and wins!
- Date Edited:
7/14/07 8:43pm (4 edits total)
Edited By:
Divia
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Goddess. I love it when its said "well I went to a school...so I know how it is." Yes indeed. And I was in a doctor's office recently so I must know everything that happens within one.
And once again you are missing the point. Students should dress appropriately, and they are NOT. we have a dress code and they do not follow it. As I already stated before. Now is this every student? No it is not. Is it a great deal for students? I daresay it is.
And here's something you may not remember. We require students to buy pencils, paper, notebooks, tissues and other items for school. Certain classes demand certain items pocket folders, lined notebook etc. Why is it so wrong to demand that they wear simple pants, a skirt or a polo shirt? Parents are buying clothes for their kids anyway. Its not as if they come to school naked...well not totally anyway. And I just checked on Sears to see how much polo shirts were. They are a whopping $5.99 for the cheapest one, and the most expensive I found in the women's section I think was $9.99.
The whole argument that they are costumers is a one strange. They are not costumers. They are kids. They are there to learn, take the information we have given them and move on to the next level...whatever that maybe. They are already required to buy other items for their classes. They already buy clothes. Why is it so wrong to tell them they have to buy polo shirts in these colors...or pants in these colors?
And I will add this. I did notice a differnce in the students when the wore uniforms. And ya know when the kids have to get dressed up during school events at the public school they acted differently as well. Is this with all students? No, but I did see an improvement.
And I did another quick search and came up with this:
Potential Benefits of School Uniforms
Preventing gang colors, etc. in schools
Decreasing violence and theft because of clothing and shoes
Instilling discipline among students
Reducing need for administrators and teachers to be 'clothes police' (for example, determining whether shorts are too short, etc.)
Reducing distractions for students
Instilling a sense of community
Helping schools recognize those who do not belong on campus
Potential problems of School Uniforms
Students and parents argue that uniforms violate their freedom of expression (see below for more about what the Supreme Court has to say on this)
Parents raise concerns about the cost
Families fear it might interfere with religious clothing like yarmulkes <--which makes no sense to me. Can yarmulkes only be worn with certain color shirts? I dunno. I dont understand the issue with this.
Parent and Student Support for Uniforms
Make uniforms more casual - jeans and a knit shirt
Allow students an outlet for their own expression: buttons to support political candidates, but not gang related paraphernalia
Provide financial assistance to those parents who can not afford the uniforms
Accommodate students religious beliefs. This is required by the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.
Make your program voluntary if community pressure is too large
Institute an 'opt-out' provision. Not including this would probably cause a court to rule against your program unless there is proof that lesser measures are ineffective.
Make uniforms an integral part of the school safety program.
It appears that the benifits outweight the drawbacks.
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