| Author |
Topic:
Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
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SlackJawedJedi
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
7/31/07 1:03am
Subject:
Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
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OR How I learned to stop worrying and love the Federal Government's inability to accept responsibility for a mistake. 
Alrighty, folks. As I'm sure most Australian's on the board are aware, shortly after the recent London Terrorist bombings, Australian Federal police arrested one Dr Mohammad Haneef, an Indian citizen working at a Gold Coast hospital on a VISA. Obsensibly, he had a connection to one of the bombers, through a moblie phone SIM card he had loaned to a cousin some time ago (said cousin having a far more direct connection, if memory serves).
Now, under Australia's current Anti-Terror laws, Federal Police are capable of holding terrorist suspects for up to 14 days without charge, which they did so. The main controvesy here, of course, is that, on conclusion of this period, when no formal charge had been placed against him, Australian Immigration Minister Kevin Andrews basically put his foot down, denying him bail, and removing his VISA.
I am, I admit, a little fuzzy on the details here, and in particular, as to how an Immigration Minister can have a say in a Federal Police matter. There has been a rather significant media storm around this, and way too many people waving those annoying Socialist Alliance.org posters behind politicians who are being interviewed by camera, but it has come to light recently that the supposed connection kind of... wasn't. Dr Haneef seems to be, from all accounts, an innocent man, who has been quietly booted from the country.
Now, I am unsure of correct procedure for this sort of thing, but I'm sure Ender Sai (most likely. :P ) will be more than happy to point out all the errors I've made in my little summary here. Which is okay, really, I only pay passing attention to the news, and am starting this discussion both as a means of creating dialogue and of filling the holes in my own understanding of the matter.
But yes. Points here:
Should Australian citizens be worried or indeed, angry, with how Dr Haneef has been treated?
Was this another knee-jerk response to a terrorist incident by the government that is simply trying to keep the populace scared as part of an election gambit?
Does anyone in the Federal Government or Police owe Dr Naseef an apology or some form of compensation for his treatment?
Why was his VISA cancelled?
Dicuss. 
Oh yeah. A recent report I chose at random:
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=281906
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
7/31/07 5:15am
Subject:
RE: Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
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SlackJawedJedi posted:
Now, under Australia's current Anti-Terror laws, Federal Police are capable of holding terrorist suspects for up to 14 days without charge, which they did so. The main controvesy here, of course, is that, on conclusion of this period, when no formal charge had been placed against him, Australian Immigration Minister Kevin Andrews basically put his foot down, denying him bail, and removing his VISA.
You didn't read your own article you posted.Lawyers for the 27-year-old Muslim, who was charged with recklessly providing support to a terrorist organisation, have launched federal court action to have his visa restored. Doing a little more searching through Google, it turns out that he was charged "under Section 102.7(2) of the Criminal Code Act 1995".
So, he did have formal charges placed against him when his visa was revoked. In fact, he wasn't denied bail, but instead refused to post bail. His bail was set at $10,000 in the hearing on July 16. (And note that you can't have bail set until after you have a charge made - the charge helps determine the bail needed.)
You really need to check on your facts a bit more before you get your panties in a wad.
Kimball Kinnison
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You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
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Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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SlackJawedJedi
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
7/31/07 5:47am
Subject:
RE: Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
- Date Edited:
7/31/07 5:50am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
SlackJawedJedi
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You're quite correct. I didn't read it. Shock and revelation! 
Eh. I posted this up in the interest of collecting facts. Never was much one for research, and I delegate that duty when I can. (And I KNOW someone's going to tell me off for that.) But hey, if by sticking my nose here and admitting I actually DON'T know what I'm talking about, I've broken some sort of senate rule of conduct, then I cheerfully apologize . Otherwise, you know, don't really appreciate the snark.
Probably a bit hard to see from an external perspective, but this is something that's been getting a lot of attention, here.
Fact is, he was kept in custody on what has turned out to be some fairly flimsy evidence, and has basically been booted out of the country for no fault of his own.
Maybe you don't see that as the real issue here, but hey. I don't believe I said I was worried about application of the law in this instance, but if that's as far as the issue should go in your eyes, Kimball my lad, then I guess I have nothing.
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Everyone's in favour of saving Hitler's brain... but when you put it in the body of a great white shark, ooo, suddenly you've gone too far!
Switzerland is small and neutral. We're more like Germany, ambitious and misunderstood!
Oh... your...God!
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
7/31/07 9:27am
Subject:
RE: Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
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SlackJawedJedi posted:
You're quite correct. I didn't read it. Shock and revelation!
Eh. I posted this up in the interest of collecting facts. Never was much one for research, and I delegate that duty when I can. (And I KNOW someone's going to tell me off for that.) But hey, if by sticking my nose here and admitting I actually DON'T know what I'm talking about, I've broken some sort of senate rule of conduct, then I cheerfully apologize . Otherwise, you know, don't really appreciate the snark.
Probably a bit hard to see from an external perspective, but this is something that's been getting a lot of attention, here.
Fact is, he was kept in custody on what has turned out to be some fairly flimsy evidence, and has basically been booted out of the country for no fault of his own.
Maybe you don't see that as the real issue here, but hey. I don't believe I said I was worried about application of the law in this instance, but if that's as far as the issue should go in your eyes, Kimball my lad, then I guess I have nothing.
All I'm going to say is that if you are going to get all outraged over something, you should make sure that you know what you are actually getting outraged over.
Saying "He was held without charges, refused bail, and is being deported for no reason" when in fact he was charged, was offered bail, and the charges form the basis for the revocation of his visa, does nothing to support your outrage and does everything to damage your arguments (including future ones that you haven't made yet). After all, if you don't know what you're really complaining about now, why should anyone think that you know what you are complaining about in the future?
One other point that you need to remember is that all visas can be revoked at any time at the whim of the issuing country. No one except for citizens have a right to enter or reside in a country. Everyone else is permitted to do so only at the sufferance of the issuing country. Australia can deny any non-citizen entry or residence for any reason, whatsoever. That's part and parcel with the basic principle of sovereignty.
Kimball Kinnison
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Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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SlackJawedJedi
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
7/31/07 10:55am
Subject:
RE: Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
- Date Edited:
7/31/07 11:02am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
SlackJawedJedi
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And I think my point is that you're reading outrage that isn't there.
I've avoiding stating any particular position for a reason, here. Suffice to say, it's something that's been on the news a lot, here, and, well, I guess I figured that some of the locals on this board might have some of their two-cents to throw in. Not that I'm baring foreigners from taking an interest, of course (how could I?), it's just that vague stance might make a bit more sense when you take into account that I'm trying to get the ball rolling on a popular issue here, and not really making arguments. I picked a view of the more vocal perspectives because, well, locally, they are the vocal perspectives. I guess I am of the opinion that the guy's been given the short end of the stick, here, but, I dunno, I don't recall making any particularly heavy-handed remarks baring a few facetious comments.
Anyway...
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Everyone's in favour of saving Hitler's brain... but when you put it in the body of a great white shark, ooo, suddenly you've gone too far!
Switzerland is small and neutral. We're more like Germany, ambitious and misunderstood!
Oh... your...God!
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
7/31/07 11:02am
Subject:
RE: Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
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SlackJawedJedi posted:
And I think my point is that you're reading outrage that isn't there.
Anyway...
Then you might want to reconsider the questions you asked after presenting the situation in your initial post. All of them lean towards the "outrage" side, as opposed to positing that the actions might have been justifiable.
This is the Senate. You really need to say what you mean, because everyone will read everything into it. 
Kimball Kinnison
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You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
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SlackJawedJedi
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
7/31/07 11:03am
Subject:
RE: Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
- Date Edited:
7/31/07 11:07am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
SlackJawedJedi
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Ha! Post edited, but noted.
Been a while since I've come here...
Okay, well, there's an alternative perspective for you. To what extent is media interpretation obscuring what's actually happening here? Certainly, most of the stuff floating around is painting Dr Haneef in a rather sympathetic light, but how many of the local networks actually have any idea? Is a large amount of this media beat-up on a minor issue?
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Everyone's in favour of saving Hitler's brain... but when you put it in the body of a great white shark, ooo, suddenly you've gone too far!
Switzerland is small and neutral. We're more like Germany, ambitious and misunderstood!
Oh... your...God!
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
7/31/07 2:55pm
Subject:
RE: Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
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KK, be nice please.
I'm so not getting involved in this discussion. Have fun people!
E_S
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
7/31/07 4:04pm
Subject:
RE: Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
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Of course, what this means is that Australia will never qualify for EU membership- even if it was eligible.
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DarthArsenal6
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
7/31/07 4:42pm
Subject:
RE: Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
- Date Edited:
7/31/07 4:49pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
DarthArsenal6
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LOL E_S
Ahhh its the War on terrorism
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
7/31/07 6:24pm
Subject:
RE: Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
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Um, do you know why I'm not getting involved DA6?
E_S
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
7/31/07 6:27pm
Subject:
RE: Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
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Ender_Sai posted:
KK, be nice please.
I'm so not getting involved in this discussion. Have fun people!
E_S
I was being nice. I didn't even call him ignorant, nor did I call his thread a waste of time. I simply provided a bunch of inconvenient facts and then suggested that he get his facts straight before making a fuss about the matter.
Kimball Kinnison
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You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
7/31/07 6:45pm
Subject:
RE: Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
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Can you make that point in a nicer manner then? 
E_S
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
7/31/07 8:47pm
Subject:
RE: Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
- Date Edited:
7/31/07 8:55pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LostOnHoth
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Here's the latest on the visa cancellation issue:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/07/31/1185647901376.html?from=top5
In my view, the system seemed to work pretty well except for the AFP investigation which appears to have been poorly orchestrated leading to a lack of evidence to support the charges, hence the charges being dropped.
However, I believe there was sufficient evidence for Dr Haneef to be detained, charged and his visa cancelled - namely, the phone calls, the timing of his departure and the chat room conversations with his cousin appear to indicate some complicity. Apparantly, there is evidence from Dr Haneef which has not been released and which explains the content of the chat room conversations which appear to be the most damning evidence.
I'm sure all will be revealed in due course when Haneef seeks to have his visa restored.
It's a shame that the AFP don't appear to be particularly well trained in investigations of this type.
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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
7/31/07 9:23pm
Subject:
RE: Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
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Actually the AFP are incredibly well respected investigators on cases like this. They even engage in regional counterpart training on investigations techniques.
E_S
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
7/31/07 9:31pm
Subject:
RE: Dr Mohammad Haneef and the SIM card of Doom
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Well, they appear to have dropped the ball on this one as I'm sure will become more apparant as the details come to light - I may be wrong but my old man was in the AFP for 17 years so I am well aware of AFP shortcomings believe me.
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